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Thread: Early replacement of West Eurasian male Y chromosomes from the east

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    Early replacement of West Eurasian male Y chromosomes from the east

    Early replacement of West Eurasian male Y chromosomes from the east


    interesting paper

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/867317v1

    Abstract

    The genomes of humans outside Africa originated almost entirely from a single migration out ~50,000-60,000 years ago, followed closely by mixture with Neanderthals contributing ~2% to all non-Africans. However, the details of this initial migration remain poorly-understood because no ancient DNA analyses are available from this key time period, and present-day autosomal data are uninformative due to subsequent population movements/reshaping. One locus, however, does retain extensive information from this early period: the Y-chromosome, where a detailed calibrated phylogeny has been constructed. Three present-day Y lineages were carried by the initial migration: the rare haplogroup D, the moderately rare C, and the very common FT lineage which now dominates most non-African populations. We show that phylogenetic analyses of haplogroup C, D and FT sequences, including very rare deep-rooting lineages, together with phylogeographic analyses of ancient and present-day non-African Y-chromosomes, all point to East/South-east Asia as the origin 50,000-55,000 years ago of all known non-African male lineages (apart from recent migrants). This implies that the initial Y lineages in populations between Africa and eastern Asia have been entirely replaced by lineages from the east, contrasting with the expectations of the serial-founder model, and thus informing and constraining models of the initial expansion.

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    That's what the modern phylogenetic tree is showing. As I wrote we must consider the Neanderthals in Europe and West Asia, they were the natives replaced aroud the same time.
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    F1.large (1).jpg


    Do I understand Correctly that the yfull haplogroup tree is now obsolete? On it "basic" haplogroup F from which there is including haplogroup GHIJK. And here GHIJK comes from FT. It would seem a trifle, but in this situation the Romanian Oase1, 40 000-35 000, BC mtDNA: N Y-DNA: F becomes a dead end branch?!
    Last edited by VladimirTaraskin; 12-09-2019 at 01:53 PM.

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    I'll restate what I stated before:

    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    The paper suggests three possibilities:

    1) "The simplest explanation is that initial western Y chromosomes have been entirely replaced by lineages from further east (Figure 3), perhaps on more than one occasion. This is supported by the more likely origin of GHIJK in the east (Figure 1)."

    2) "Alternative explanations, where the initial divergences within the Y-chromosomal phylogeny did indeed occur in the west, would require either that C, D and F lineages all migrated east, together with some GHIJK lineages, leaving only GHIJK lineages in the west"

    3) "or that C, D and F were lost by genetic drift in the west, but not in the east."

    They claim that option 3 is unlikely because "genetic effective population sizes have been lower in East Asia than in Europe29,30, so less genetic drift is expected in the west." However, we have ancient DNA showing that Y-DNA C was common among Ice Age Europeans, survived until the Middle Neolithic and actually is still present in the West at very low level today in the form of C-V20. We also see that a similar thing happened to mtDNA M.

    So I think the paper ignoring option 3 is unjustified.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    F1.large (1).jpg


    Do I understand Correctly that the yfull haplogroup tree is now obsolete? On it "basic" haplogroup F from which there is including haplogroup GHIJK. And here GHIJK comes from FT. It would seem a trifle, but in this situation the Romanian Oase1, 40 000-35 000, BC mtDNA: N Y-DNA: F becomes a dead end branch?!
    I'm interested at the position and age of Y 'H2' on the map. It is the only haplogroup I see that is showing the oldest total European presence, very early, and around the 50,000 years of age period. Is it possible that this could mean,Y H2 in Europe today could of survived and remained in Europe from this early period/age.
    Last edited by Paul333; 12-09-2019 at 08:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul333 View Post
    I'm interested at the position and age of Y 'H2' on the map. It is the only haplogroup I see that is showing totally European,and early, around the 50,000 years of age period. Is it possible that this could mean,Y H2 survived and remained in Europe from this period/age.
    They are referring to only what's in their own sample of modern populations; we know from other studies that Y H2 is also present in modern Western Asia. No H2 has been found in pre-Neolithic European DNA samples AFAIK. The oldest known is from Jordan, Pre-Pottery Neolithic B, about 8000 BC. It is then found in Neolithic NW Anatolia ~6200 BC and later in Neolithic Hungary and Spain. So there is nothing to point to it being specifically European, more likely it arrived with Neolithic farmers from the Near East.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    F1.large (1).jpg

    Do I understand Correctly that the yfull haplogroup tree is now obsolete? On it "basic" haplogroup F from which there is including haplogroup GHIJK. And here GHIJK comes from FT. It would seem a trifle, but in this situation the Romanian Oase1, 40 000-35 000, BC mtDNA: N Y-DNA: F becomes a dead end branch?!
    I guess they are renaming F as FT and F2 (from Southeast Asia) as just F, which is confusing, I doubt it will stick. Oase1 has pre-NO like Ust' Ishim, not any basal F.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    F1.large (1).jpg


    Do I understand Correctly that the yfull haplogroup tree is now obsolete? On it "basic" haplogroup F from which there is including haplogroup GHIJK. And here GHIJK comes from FT. It would seem a trifle, but in this situation the Romanian Oase1, 40 000-35 000, BC mtDNA: N Y-DNA: F becomes a dead end branch?!
    In this article they have made their own estimations and they give a url to code on github they used to make age estimations. I have wrote about it before, they get significantly different time estimations comparing to Y-full. On Y-full all the major non-African happlogroups (D(xD0), C and F) have TMRCA less than 49 000 ybp, while they have both C and F thousand years with TMRCA about 54 000 ybp.
    I have read many times that Oase is a dead-end autosomally. F is no doubt not a dead-end happlogroup, but Oase sample can be from some F-branch that is a dead-end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    In this article they have made their own estimations and they give a url to code on github they used to make age estimations. I have wrote about it before, they get significantly different time estimations comparing to Y-full. On Y-full all the major non-African happlogroups (D(xD0), C and F) have TMRCA less than 49 000 ybp, while they have both C and F thousand years with TMRCA about 54 000 ybp.
    I don't understand why they assume D0 is African. Both primary branches of D0 is found in the Near East (Syria and KSA), whereas only one very derived, young clade of one of the branches is found in Nigeria.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    They are referring to only what's in their own sample of modern populations; we know from other studies that Y H2 is also present in modern Western Asia. No H2 has been found in pre-Neolithic European DNA samples AFAIK. The oldest known is from Jordan, Pre-Pottery Neolithic B, about 8000 BC. It is then found in Neolithic NW Anatolia ~6200 BC and later in Neolithic Hungary and Spain. So there is nothing to point to it being specifically European, more likely it arrived with Neolithic farmers from the Near East.
    Thats incorrect, YH2 P96 has been found in Europe, The oldest known is referenced in Europe before your referenced sample from Jordan 8000 BC.

    I have disscused this on other forums,and on this site on the topic - 'inviting all Y Haplogroup H to participate '.

    Also see my comments on another forum Eupedia regarding Y H2. Where it is also,believed to of been present, and linked to the develpment of,the European Aurignacian period, some 43-33,000 years ago. ( see Maciamo Genetic history of the British & Irish Eupedia Oct 2016 ).

    It is also mapped to the Mesolithic period of Europe from 15,000 yrs ago, see also Eupedia again Maciamo's Ancient migration maps 9000-7000BC Nov 2015, showing European periods and area's for Y H2

    It seems there are/were two groups of European Y H2, ancient movements at least, one very early arriving with the first Europeans and another one, possibly arriving much later, this possibly dating to the early farmers and Neolithic periods, this is not just my opinion.

    Bearing in mind that Y H2 p96 was changed from Y F etc, around 2014.
    Last edited by Paul333; 12-09-2019 at 10:38 PM.

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