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Thread: Population history from the Neolithic to present (Sardinia) - Marcus et al. (2019?)

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    We can now say pretty confidently that the Sherden Sea Peoples were probably same J-L283 as these Nuragic people. See image:

     
    Very interesting. Thanks for sharing

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    We can now say pretty confidently that the Sherden Sea Peoples were probably same J-L283 as these Nuragic people. See image:

     
    For me there was no doubt that Sherden were from Sardinia although we still donít have any adna proof of this, the odds are very likely.

    Also this is something I havenít voiced publicly yet, but I think thereís a chance that some of the Sea Peoples settled in Southern Italy, groups like the Oenotrians and Elymnians that have vague origins with a Aegean background story, also all the stories of Trojans who migrated to the Peninsula, not saying this is true but I think its a possibility, I was convinced Etruscans were going to be one of those groups and it turns out that wasnít true.
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>Y156527

    Other Y lines: 3x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J2a-S25258>SK1336, 5x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: E-V13> A7135, 6x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J1-Z2331>L829

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  5. #33
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    Has anyone found the time periods for SNN001 and SNN002?

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  7. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post

    I honestly think they likely made it to Sardinia through continental Europe (maybe NW Balkans>Italy>Sardinia).

    If we assume current J-L283 TMRCA at 5400 ybp, the Armenian should split at ~6000 ybp. This suggests that J-L283>Z622, where the two European branches stem from, migrated en masse from further east sometime between 6000-4400 ybp (J-Z597 TMRCA).

    I think the Sardinian branches likely represent some MBA migration that contained various clades and that got isolated there. I guess investigating the origin of the Nuragic culture should give us a clue..
    Since you mention Armenia, I also noticed some cultural similarities between the Nuragics and bronze age Armenian kurgan finds. See image:

     


    There is without a doubt a cultural connection between these artefacts. They are made in a similar way, and both depict the totemic animals, especially deers but also goats, at the front of the chariot/boat. These finds are a bit later than the 6000-4400 ybp window though, but point to a common mythology or belief system.

    This is a bit more speculative but supports your migration route through continental Europe. See image:

     


    This is a find from the Glasinac Culture in around the Illyrian coast.

    The birds from the bronze age Glasinac cult chariot resemble very closely the totemic bird that is depicted atop the top left Nuragic boat statue, and the composition is also similar.

    I think there is a cultural relation.

    Glasinac I culture supposedly begins around 1800BC, around the same time as beginning of Nuragic, and is associated with the Autariatae tribe. It also fits the J-L283 found in the Illyrian coast in Mathieson paper.

    A further remark. This type of Deer totem was also used as a chariot ornament by the Hittites. See image:

     
    Last edited by Johane Derite; 12-21-2019 at 07:30 PM.

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  9. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Since you mention Armenia, I also noticed some cultural similarities between the Nuragics and bronze age Armenian kurgan finds. See image:

     


    There is without a doubt a cultural connection between these artefacts. They are made in a similar way, and both depict the totemic animals, especially deers but also goats, at the front of the chariot/boat. These finds are a bit later than the 6000-4400 ybp window though, but point to a common mythology or belief system.

    This is a bit more speculative but supports your migration route through continental Europe. See image:

     


    This is a find from the Glasinac Culture in around the Illyrian coast.

    The birds from the bronze age Glasinac cult chariot resemble very closely the totemic bird that is depicted atop the top left Nuragic boat statue, and the composition is also similar.

    I think there is a cultural relation.

    Glasinac I culture supposedly begins around 1800BC, around the same time as beginning of Nuragic, and is associated with the Autariatae tribe. It also fits the J-L283 found in the Illyrian coast in Mathieson paper.

    A further remark. This type of Deer totem was also used as a chariot ornament by the Hittites. See image:

     
    Interesting information!

    For the bolded, we may have evidence in the J-Y21045 branch. It splits right at ~1900 BC: One subbranch defined by J-YP9 in Sardinia, while its "brother" J-Z38300 mostly in North Albania.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y21045/
    Last edited by Trojet; 12-21-2019 at 09:09 PM.

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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    Interesting information!

    For the bolded, we may have evidence in the J-Y21045 branch. It splits right at ~1900 BC: One subbranch defined by J-YP9 in Sardinia, while its "brother" J-Z38300 mostly in North Albania.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y21045/
    Amazing, I didn't connect this before.

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  13. #37
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    Armenians seem to have a tradition of sacrificing Deer and Doves/Pigeons. This is very speculative but it could possibly be of the same religious substrate that we see in the deer and birds in those bronze figures.

    "Throughout the day, doves and deer would be sacrificed in the name of the gods. Usually the horns of the deer were painted colorfully. There also was set up a big bonfire at nighttime where kids and young adults would try to jump over and around it to scare and drive away bad spirits. The celebrating people would bring their first set of harvest of the year to share with others.

    Horseback riding races were done, as well as deer racing. The let go hundreds of doves into the air for good luck. Dancing, singing, intellectual and athletic competitive games were a big part of the celebrations, where competitors would try to impress the ones they admire in the audience."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navasard?oldformat=true

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    Nuragic Sardinians seems to have few steppe (green) in K4, is it noise or real

    Apparently the sardinian population in the bronze age was mixed "racialy" speaking, including bell beaker dinarics and other types like the one from Rinaldone culture
    Last edited by Reozek; 02-07-2020 at 04:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pribislav View Post
    SNN002 is a really low quality sample, judging by the number of covered SNPs, but I think it's safe to say he belongs to P312:

    P312/S116/PF6547/MF52579+ C>A (5 reads)

    The only derived SNP below P312 is:

    Z272+ G>A (1 read)

    In theory SNN002 could indeed be Z272, since he has no negatives at upstream levels (Z195 and DF27), but we should bear in mind it is covered with only one read.
    which time period is this sample ? Nuragic?
    Last edited by Reozek; 02-13-2020 at 06:45 PM. Reason: i was wrong

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