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Thread: New study on Romani shows a common Indian origin and a complex West Eurasian admix

  1. #1
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    New study on Romani shows a common Indian origin and a complex West Eurasian admix

    The demographic history of the Roma population is characterized by a series of bottlenecks and admixture events that have occurred since the proto-Roma left India, after their arrival to the Balkans and spread throughout Europe, and in the case of Iberian Roma, after their settlement in the Iberian Peninsula. The study of their genetic profile in a worldwide context places them between South Asians and Europeans, which confirms previous findings of admixture. A fine-scale approach has allowed us to distinguish the recent West Eurasian component, which is the result of the admixture with non-Roma West Eurasian populations. Our estimates of this recent West Eurasian component, around 65%, are lower than the previously reported 80% as it only includes the “post-exodus from India” admixture and not the “pre-exodus from India” AWE component (around 15% based on the f4 ratio estimates). This recent West Eurasian component was acquired between 1270–1580. Although GLOBETROTTER infers this admixture as a single pulse event (“one-date”), it would require large data sets to distinguish continuous from single pulse admixture.

    European Roma sub-structure:
    https://ibb.co/d5jB03w

    Admixture:
    https://ibb.co/VxcRSvD

    Source - https://journals.plos.org/plosgeneti...l.pgen.1008417

    This is the most recent study on Romani people. It suggests that the average South Asian ancestry for Romani is 35%. Although, I have seen some who go beyond 60% which of course falls out of the average.

    However, this study also shows the all Romani have Balkan ancestry in common (along with moderate Middle Eastern or Caucasian). This contrasts quite a lot with what the most recent update has transformed the results of Romani people. Most, including myself have received about 50% Western Asian, our South Asian has been improved, however in an average of 30-40% yet our European ancestry dropped significantly to 10-20% even bellow.

    My results & my cousin results (Both from Macedonia):
    https://ibb.co/XWNYpP9
    https://ibb.co/g4zWdcn

    Spanish Romani:
    https://ibb.co/bBp5wwY

    British Romani:
    https://ibb.co/44nvWkW

    How come, DNA studies confirm moderate gene-flow from the Middle East/Caucasus in Romani admixture (unmixed) while 23andme gradually assigns us with Western Asian? Something is off here
    33% Greek_Thessaloniki + 33% IraqiJew + 33% Punjabi @ 4.835

    Modern:


     
    fit: 2.4426,

    Greek_Crete: 51.67
    Gujarati: 38.33
    Iranian_Persian: 7.5
    Lithuanian: 2.5


    Ancient:

     
    fit": 1.7643

    DRAVIDIAN_Saidu_Sharif_IA_o: 32.5
    GRECO-ROMAN_Italy_Medieval_Collegno_o1: 17.5
    ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN_Balkans_IA: 15
    SLAVIC_Avar_Hungary_Szolad: 11.67
    LEVANTINE_Levant_LBN_MA_NE: 10.83
    ANATOLIAN_Anatolia_IA: 7.5
    ARIAN_PAK_Swat_Butkara_IA: 5

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  3. #2
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    Thank you for posting.
    Did the study include Finnish and Swedish Romani?
    Hidden Content

    Target: Nino_scaled
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  4. #3
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    England North of England Ireland Scotland Germany Romani Star of David
    I'd love to see more studies on British Romani, but I do like the Romanichal result you posted. There are very few of them on 23andme.
    Target: mildlycurly_scaled
    Distance: 1.3578% / 0.01357814
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    Current research interest(s): The Viscontis of Milan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nino90 View Post
    Thank you for posting.
    Did the study include Finnish and Swedish Romani?
    You’re welcome. Unfortunately not, Scandinavian Roma we’re not included. I match with them though, they do have Northern admix.
    33% Greek_Thessaloniki + 33% IraqiJew + 33% Punjabi @ 4.835

    Modern:


     
    fit: 2.4426,

    Greek_Crete: 51.67
    Gujarati: 38.33
    Iranian_Persian: 7.5
    Lithuanian: 2.5


    Ancient:

     
    fit": 1.7643

    DRAVIDIAN_Saidu_Sharif_IA_o: 32.5
    GRECO-ROMAN_Italy_Medieval_Collegno_o1: 17.5
    ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN_Balkans_IA: 15
    SLAVIC_Avar_Hungary_Szolad: 11.67
    LEVANTINE_Levant_LBN_MA_NE: 10.83
    ANATOLIAN_Anatolia_IA: 7.5
    ARIAN_PAK_Swat_Butkara_IA: 5

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to chris000009 For This Useful Post:

     Nino90 (12-23-2019)

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    Quote Originally Posted by mildlycurly View Post
    I'd love to see more studies on British Romani, but I do like the Romanichal result you posted. There are very few of them on 23andme.
    Ah man I match people all around the world. Hard to keep track of them hah. But that one was a distant match I usually match with Romanichals and their results are relatively similar British admix, plus original Romani (Balkan, Indian and Wesr Asian), sometimes they score Spanish too.
    33% Greek_Thessaloniki + 33% IraqiJew + 33% Punjabi @ 4.835

    Modern:


     
    fit: 2.4426,

    Greek_Crete: 51.67
    Gujarati: 38.33
    Iranian_Persian: 7.5
    Lithuanian: 2.5


    Ancient:

     
    fit": 1.7643

    DRAVIDIAN_Saidu_Sharif_IA_o: 32.5
    GRECO-ROMAN_Italy_Medieval_Collegno_o1: 17.5
    ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN_Balkans_IA: 15
    SLAVIC_Avar_Hungary_Szolad: 11.67
    LEVANTINE_Levant_LBN_MA_NE: 10.83
    ANATOLIAN_Anatolia_IA: 7.5
    ARIAN_PAK_Swat_Butkara_IA: 5

  9. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by fireman2020 View Post
    So gypsies are part indian, part european?
    I don’t know. No one talks about gypsies here. This thread is for Romani people!
    33% Greek_Thessaloniki + 33% IraqiJew + 33% Punjabi @ 4.835

    Modern:


     
    fit: 2.4426,

    Greek_Crete: 51.67
    Gujarati: 38.33
    Iranian_Persian: 7.5
    Lithuanian: 2.5


    Ancient:

     
    fit": 1.7643

    DRAVIDIAN_Saidu_Sharif_IA_o: 32.5
    GRECO-ROMAN_Italy_Medieval_Collegno_o1: 17.5
    ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN_Balkans_IA: 15
    SLAVIC_Avar_Hungary_Szolad: 11.67
    LEVANTINE_Levant_LBN_MA_NE: 10.83
    ANATOLIAN_Anatolia_IA: 7.5
    ARIAN_PAK_Swat_Butkara_IA: 5

  10. #7
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    The 'Greek and Balkan' among both Iberian and Balkan Romani people's reminds me a lot of the 'Italian' and 'broadly Southern European' (Aegean) showing up as a genetic signature in even North African Jews and surely Eastern European Jews if there wasn't a 'Ashkenazi' component. The idea that Romani people share not just a Central-South Asian origin but another West Asian and Balkan one is pretty unique. I notice the samples you share score some components 'broadly'. This is worth particular attention because this 23andme ancestry composition tool claims to only detect DNA within the last 500 years. If we put into perspective that Romani people left Northern India say between the 6th and 11th centuries, one would expect them to score exclusively just 'broadly' Central-South Asian and maybe have more 'unassigned' segments, but it doesn't look to be the case.

    Question, since I'm very ignorant about Romani history and origins. Are you happy with the Central Asian components Romani people score and is there consistency? I ask that because both Western Jews and Samaritans show a sometimes muddy and inconsistent pattern of MENA components using 23andme's ancestry composition.

  11. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by fireman2020 View Post
    Oh, sorry

    I thought gypsie and romani were the same thing. Whats the difference then?
    Well Romani people an ethnic group formed in the Eastern Roman Empire by people who migrated out of Northern India through Persia. The name Roma derives from the Roman Empire similarity to Romaniote Jews because both ethnicities formed there. Gypsy is a synonym for nomadic lifestyle. Not all Roma are/were nomads. There is a specific tribe that practice nomadism in the Romani diaspora.

    Although the word gypsy derived from the confusion of Europeans that Romani are Egyptians. Nowadays anyone can be a gypsy, Irish gypsy etc.
    Last edited by chris000009; 12-23-2019 at 02:20 AM.
    33% Greek_Thessaloniki + 33% IraqiJew + 33% Punjabi @ 4.835

    Modern:


     
    fit: 2.4426,

    Greek_Crete: 51.67
    Gujarati: 38.33
    Iranian_Persian: 7.5
    Lithuanian: 2.5


    Ancient:

     
    fit": 1.7643

    DRAVIDIAN_Saidu_Sharif_IA_o: 32.5
    GRECO-ROMAN_Italy_Medieval_Collegno_o1: 17.5
    ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN_Balkans_IA: 15
    SLAVIC_Avar_Hungary_Szolad: 11.67
    LEVANTINE_Levant_LBN_MA_NE: 10.83
    ANATOLIAN_Anatolia_IA: 7.5
    ARIAN_PAK_Swat_Butkara_IA: 5

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  13. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    The 'Greek and Balkan' among both Iberian and Balkan Romani people's reminds me a lot of the 'Italian' and 'broadly Southern European' (Aegean) showing up as a genetic signature in even North African Jews and surely Eastern European Jews if there wasn't a 'Ashkenazi' component. The idea that Romani people share not just a Central-South Asian origin but another West Asian and Balkan one is pretty unique. I notice the samples you share score some components 'broadly'. This is worth particular attention because this 23andme ancestry composition tool claims to only detect DNA within the last 500 years. If we put into perspective that Romani people left Northern India say between the 6th and 11th centuries, one would expect them to score exclusively just 'broadly' Central-South Asian and maybe have more 'unassigned' segments, but it doesn't look to be the case.

    Question, since I'm very ignorant about Romani history and origins. Are you happy with the Central Asian components Romani people score and is there consistency? I ask that because both Western Jews and Samaritans show a sometimes muddy and inconsistent pattern of MENA components using 23andme's ancestry composition.
    Yeah it is also similar in way that North Africans now (within the update) lost Southern Euro. Balkan Romani lost some of their European and gained more Western Asian. I suspect this is because the new Anatolian category which looks like it includes Greek DNA.

    23andme has improved South Asian ancestry for Romani. In my case it worked pretty well, even got Punjab as a sub region. But for some it shows as broadly Central South Asian or even mainly Central.

    You are right it must work only for recent ancestry but due to endogamy our ancient Dna was passed down to recent times. Similarly most Jews are 40% Middle Eastern. Actually on some calculators I get Ashkenazi plus Indian
    Last edited by chris000009; 12-23-2019 at 02:38 AM.
    33% Greek_Thessaloniki + 33% IraqiJew + 33% Punjabi @ 4.835

    Modern:


     
    fit: 2.4426,

    Greek_Crete: 51.67
    Gujarati: 38.33
    Iranian_Persian: 7.5
    Lithuanian: 2.5


    Ancient:

     
    fit": 1.7643

    DRAVIDIAN_Saidu_Sharif_IA_o: 32.5
    GRECO-ROMAN_Italy_Medieval_Collegno_o1: 17.5
    ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN_Balkans_IA: 15
    SLAVIC_Avar_Hungary_Szolad: 11.67
    LEVANTINE_Levant_LBN_MA_NE: 10.83
    ANATOLIAN_Anatolia_IA: 7.5
    ARIAN_PAK_Swat_Butkara_IA: 5

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     Seabass (12-23-2019)

  15. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by fireman2020 View Post
    OK, thats pretty interesting. Never thought it be like that. Thought that gypsies and romanis were synonyms.

    ANyway, what dna-results do romanis get then? Can you show me yours? Almost never seen any "romani" dna-results
    My results are shown in the beginning of the thread.
    33% Greek_Thessaloniki + 33% IraqiJew + 33% Punjabi @ 4.835

    Modern:


     
    fit: 2.4426,

    Greek_Crete: 51.67
    Gujarati: 38.33
    Iranian_Persian: 7.5
    Lithuanian: 2.5


    Ancient:

     
    fit": 1.7643

    DRAVIDIAN_Saidu_Sharif_IA_o: 32.5
    GRECO-ROMAN_Italy_Medieval_Collegno_o1: 17.5
    ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN_Balkans_IA: 15
    SLAVIC_Avar_Hungary_Szolad: 11.67
    LEVANTINE_Levant_LBN_MA_NE: 10.83
    ANATOLIAN_Anatolia_IA: 7.5
    ARIAN_PAK_Swat_Butkara_IA: 5

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