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Thread: Ancient Migrations

  1. #461
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    Quote Originally Posted by tipirneni View Post
    I have created this admixure diagram. Starting from H1 around 12000 YBP -> J1/E admixure -> Caucausus primarily G2 -> SIS BA2/Gonur -> L1 naga admix -> O rice farmer (probably copper hoard culture effect) -> Kang Ju Saka admix during early Yadu/Andhra - Saka struggle -> Hun admix during Chalukya/Chola struggle with late Huns -> R2/J2b2 Andhra groups -> Tamil soldiers probably G2/R1a

    Attachment 36288



    The distinctive Finno-Ugric genes from the Kang Ju are found in similar ways in older Central Asian graves. The current distribution is also in Finno-Ugric areas and some areas with admixure such as in parts of Middle East, Venetians, Hispanics having NAsian, North Europe.
    The My True Ancestry admix by age diagram clearly captures what I isolated from Segment matches on the ancient specimens which I outlined the post above

    Attachment 36998

    The Outermost circle is the Most recent Medieval which has the Karkota at 73.8% and then Brahmin, Hun followed by Gaznavid. Tiny ottoman and byzantine which might be noise. This might be latter Hun mix that I was getting signal for.

    The next circle Dark ages before Medieval shows close to 40% from Roman/Hun/Avar/Gaul which might be the KangJu like sample.

    The next circle shows Iron age Karkota 64% and Maurya mixed with some Jamon, Selucid, Greco/Bactria, Scythian, Sarmatian. This might be Iron Age mix with Mauryan Soldiers.

    The next circle shows Mauryan/Gaznavid mix with some Safavid and Ancient Greek soldier. Swat Valley mix.

    The next circle shows Bronze age 1/3 each Cimmeran, Sarmatian and Alan. The Central Asian samples that show up might be from this era. This is probably the Shahr-e-Sokhte age mix with G2/R1b people from Upper Caucasus.
    Y: H-M69 -> H-M82 -> SK1225 -> H-Z5888 -> H-Z5890 -> H-CTS8144 [CTS8144/PF1741/M5498] -> Z34531 (H1a1a4b3b1a8~)
    found 2875 BCE -> Jiroft/IVC Periphery 11459 Shahr-i-Sokte BA2
    mtDNA:U2a1a

    G25 Ancients Dist 0.79 IND_Roopkund_A 51.05 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 46.64 MAR_Iberomaurusian2.04PAK_Katelai_IA0.19 TKM_Gonur2_BA 0.08

    Lactose Persistence rs3213871 rs4988243 rs4988183 rs3769005 rs2236783
    found -> DA125, Kangju

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    The Bais Rajputs are considered to be Suryavanshi. They are an ancient Hindu warrior caste. Their eponymous ancestor was Gautamiputra Satakarni also known as Shalivahana, the king of Shalikot presently known as Sialkot in Pakistan. Shalivahana is the mythic son of a snake who conquered the great Raja Vikramaditya of Ujjain in 55 AD and established his own area. The clan claims to have come from Manji Paithan in the Dekhan in 78 AD when Shalivahana was king. This was the Saka era and Shalivahana was the leader of the Saka nomads who invaded Gujarat on two occasions before and shortly after the beginning of the Christian era.
    Y: H-M69 -> H-M82 -> SK1225 -> H-Z5888 -> H-Z5890 -> H-CTS8144 [CTS8144/PF1741/M5498] -> Z34531 (H1a1a4b3b1a8~)
    found 2875 BCE -> Jiroft/IVC Periphery 11459 Shahr-i-Sokte BA2
    mtDNA:U2a1a

    G25 Ancients Dist 0.79 IND_Roopkund_A 51.05 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 46.64 MAR_Iberomaurusian2.04PAK_Katelai_IA0.19 TKM_Gonur2_BA 0.08

    Lactose Persistence rs3213871 rs4988243 rs4988183 rs3769005 rs2236783
    found -> DA125, Kangju

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    Quote Originally Posted by tipirneni View Post
    ... Gautamiputra Satakarni also known as Shalivahana, the king of Shalikot presently known as Sialkot in Pakistan. Shalivahana is the mythic son of a snake who conquered the great Raja Vikramaditya of Ujjain in 55 AD and established his own area. The clan claims to have come from Manji Paithan in the Dekhan in 78 AD when Shalivahana was king. This was the Saka era and Shalivahana was the leader of the Saka nomads who invaded Gujarat on two occasions before and shortly after the beginning of the Christian era.
    This is the most puzzling of traditions - that Shalibahan destroyed the Shak, but thus established the Shak sambat of 78AD - very counterintuitive.

    If true, then Shalibahan of tradition could have been a Chutukul Andhra Satkarni. 'Vikramaditya' Gautamiputr Satkarni? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautamiputra_Satakarni
    Coin of Gautamiputr Satakarni with Brahmi script legend "Rano Gotamiputasa Sir-Satakanisa" ... "Three-arched hill" and the "Ujain symbol".[1] These coins were overstruck on silver coins of Nahapana."


    Nahapana is considered a Shak. "Shailendra Bhandare regards 78 CE as the last year of his reign."
    And the era would be date of the defeat of Nahapana at Ujjain by Shalibahan Gautamiputr Satkarni.

    Cf. Sagamana Chutukulasa
    Chutus also called themselves Haritiputr much like the later Kadambas and Chalooks. Eg. Haritiputra Vishnukada Chutu-Kulananda Satakarni, Vaijayantipura [Banavasi]

    "After the fall of this [Shatavahan] dynasty, the Chutu family became the masters of Kuntala. They often styled themselves the Śātavāhanas, and possibly claimed some relationship with them."
    https://books.google.com/books?id=RUX8-PzWohgC&pg=PA4

    The tradition that the Shak era comes from their defeat and not establishment is quite old.
    Even El Beruni had noticed that.
    "Saka kala, the epoch of the era of Saka, falls 135 years later than Vikrama. The Saka mentioned here tyrannised the country between the river Sindh and the ocean after he had made Aryavarta his dwelling place ... he had come to India from the west. The Hindus had much to suffer from him, till at last they received help from the east ... and killed him in the region of Karur ... Now this date became famous, as people rejoiced in the news of the death of the tyrant, and was used as the epoch of an era, especially by the astronomers."
    https://books.google.com/books?id=lfUH7Qnm1VkC&pg=PA6

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  7. #464
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    This is the most puzzling of traditions - that Shalibahan destroyed the Shak, but thus established the Shak sambat of 78AD - very counterintuitive.

    If true, then Shalibahan of tradition could have been a Chutukul Andhra Satkarni. 'Vikramaditya' Gautamiputr Satkarni? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautamiputra_Satakarni
    Coin of Gautamiputr Satakarni with Brahmi script legend "Rano Gotamiputasa Sir-Satakanisa" ... "Three-arched hill" and the "Ujain symbol".[1] These coins were overstruck on silver coins of Nahapana."


    Nahapana is considered a Shak. "Shailendra Bhandare regards 78 CE as the last year of his reign."
    And the era would be date of the defeat of Nahapana at Ujjain by Shalibahan Gautamiputr Satkarni.

    Cf. Sagamana Chutukulasa
    Chutus also called themselves Haritiputr much like the later Kadambas and Chalooks. Eg. Haritiputra Vishnukada Chutu-Kulananda Satakarni, Vaijayantipura [Banavasi]

    "After the fall of this [Shatavahan] dynasty, the Chutu family became the masters of Kuntala. They often styled themselves the Śātavāhanas, and possibly claimed some relationship with them."
    https://books.google.com/books?id=RUX8-PzWohgC&pg=PA4

    The tradition that the Shak era comes from their defeat and not establishment is quite old.
    Even El Beruni had noticed that.
    "Saka kala, the epoch of the era of Saka, falls 135 years later than Vikrama. The Saka mentioned here tyrannised the country between the river Sindh and the ocean after he had made Aryavarta his dwelling place ... he had come to India from the west. The Hindus had much to suffer from him, till at last they received help from the east ... and killed him in the region of Karur ... Now this date became famous, as people rejoiced in the news of the death of the tyrant, and was used as the epoch of an era, especially by the astronomers."
    https://books.google.com/books?id=lfUH7Qnm1VkC&pg=PA6
    BAIS RAJPUTS

    Gothra - Bhardwaj.
    Kuldevi - Kalika.
    Ved - Yajurved.
    Isht Dev - Shiv ji.
    ancesters: First king from this vansha was Harshawardhan. Other kings are Trilokchand, Vikramchand, Kartikchand, Ramchandra, Adharchandra, Narwardhan, Rajyawardhan etc.
    States - Baiswada, Pratishthanpur etc.
    Branches - Trilokchandi, Kotbahar, Rawat, Pratishthanpuri, Dodiya, Chandosiya, Kumbhi, Narwariya etc.
    Being originated from Baiswada they are called Bais.

    Looks like they are called Shakiya and defeated Bhars long back settled in Unnao dist. Some online sources claim them to be from Surpur in Rajasthan thousands of years back migrated to Magadh settled in 12 villages. Then King Harsha was one of them won over whole North India shortly, this was confirmed from Chinese text saying Harsha was from Fei-she (vaishya) extraction. Many moved into Unnao dist. Then during Sultanate many working as Bhale SUltan.

    Some Vaish and Maurya also claim to be same as Bais


    May be they originated after the end of Guptas during the chaos where many people claiming to be royals became Vaish. Atleast Agrawals claim to be from Agra Sen Maharaj later took up Merchant work. Even title Gupta was used by Kings & even Brahmins until then but later Medieval only Vaish started using it. That period of time is very chaotic in North from end of Gupta to establishment of Imperial Kannauj. Where as in the South, Chalukyas and Pallavas were successful in establishing big kingdoms staying afloat for another 500 years using the infrastructure from Satavahanas & Sangam kings.


    Whereas you can see clear continuity of South Castes from Yadus Satavahana and Sangam as follows

    Ancient Yadu -> Lingayat, Tamil castes like Nadar Valllur Vellalas, Ay castes,
    later Yadu tribes like Haihaya, Yadavas -> Some Gowdas, Kamma, Shettys
    Satavahana -> Chalukyas dynasty -> Rashtrakutas
    -> Kammas
    -> Velama
    -> Gowda
    -> Reddy
    Naga/Ancient Yadu -> Pallavas -> some Tamil castes like Palli


    Where as Northern castes it is too much flux and changes from one state to other until 11th Cen Gahadvala establishing of Kannuaj , at which point where who ever had state to rule became Kshatriyas


    The core nobility of Chalukya & Haihaya princes who were there during later Medieval time in South & during early Sultanate incursion during 13th cen were all slowly killed in multiple encounters during Khilji and Tuglaq rule. There are records of many killed in battle and some missing. Similarly the Pandian nobility were all killed.

    But it is not the case in North India.
    Last edited by tipirneni; 04-01-2020 at 12:59 AM.
    Y: H-M69 -> H-M82 -> SK1225 -> H-Z5888 -> H-Z5890 -> H-CTS8144 [CTS8144/PF1741/M5498] -> Z34531 (H1a1a4b3b1a8~)
    found 2875 BCE -> Jiroft/IVC Periphery 11459 Shahr-i-Sokte BA2
    mtDNA:U2a1a

    G25 Ancients Dist 0.79 IND_Roopkund_A 51.05 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 46.64 MAR_Iberomaurusian2.04PAK_Katelai_IA0.19 TKM_Gonur2_BA 0.08

    Lactose Persistence rs3213871 rs4988243 rs4988183 rs3769005 rs2236783
    found -> DA125, Kangju

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  9. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by tipirneni View Post
    You see on the map there is a small contribution from Gujrat. That might have been that the author was talking about. The people prior to R2 migration into Srilanka were probbaly the Kurmba like in Kerala/TN Yakka like people in Lanka. Those people might have had an neolithic continuity with Iran_N agricultural people via the coastal line. There might have been some contribution from the some Neolithic Ahar cultures in Gujarat/Rajasthan area during these era before the R2 migration came from Bengal area.
    Continuing here for relevancy,

    Did R2 migration happened through the east coast?

    Was there no R2 before this migration?

    how did R2 end up in western part of India?

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  11. #466
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    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    Continuing here for relevancy,

    Did R2 migration happened through the east coast?

    Was there no R2 before this migration?

    how did R2 end up in western part of India?
    The high heterogeneity and % occurrence is groups are found in Bengal. The following network diagram shows East/Yellow present all over with Red/South a big offshoot & development corresponding to IA movement down south. R2 shows highest occurrence among IE middle caste and Dravidian low caste apart from AA tribals. The network diagram shows Western part in green doesnt show any separate development like Red/South



    from pub

    Analysis of 20-Y-STRs withinthe R2 lineage revealed that three haplotypeswere shared; one between Kamma Chaudhary andKappu Naidu, both lower caste Dravidianspeakers from Andhra Pradesh and two withinKarmali and Pallar populations. Network analysis(Fig. 2d) depicted that a large number haplotypeswere shared between populations of south India,while the populations of eastern India harboredmore discrete Y-STR haplotypes. The TMRCAfor M124T was estimated to be ~39,647 years(Table 4)

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._Y-Chromosomes
    Y: H-M69 -> H-M82 -> SK1225 -> H-Z5888 -> H-Z5890 -> H-CTS8144 [CTS8144/PF1741/M5498] -> Z34531 (H1a1a4b3b1a8~)
    found 2875 BCE -> Jiroft/IVC Periphery 11459 Shahr-i-Sokte BA2
    mtDNA:U2a1a

    G25 Ancients Dist 0.79 IND_Roopkund_A 51.05 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 46.64 MAR_Iberomaurusian2.04PAK_Katelai_IA0.19 TKM_Gonur2_BA 0.08

    Lactose Persistence rs3213871 rs4988243 rs4988183 rs3769005 rs2236783
    found -> DA125, Kangju

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Not sure whether descendants of Kadambs are still there in the Banvasi area, but there are some Mayurvanshi Kadambs still in Orissa (Harihar area of Mayurbhanj and Keonjhar) - perhaps they came in with the Ganga expansion to Kaling.
    "inscription of Anantavarman Codaganga ...[from] city of Kolahalapura [Kolar] in the Gangavadi visaya [region of Gangas of Mysore]"
    https://eprints.soas.ac.uk/29002/1/10673246.pdf

    Continuing here as for relevancy,

    None of the Western Ganga rulers was Anantavarman Codaganga, actually, he was son Rajaraja Devendravarman, Ruler of Eastern Ganga dynasty.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Ganga_dynasty

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Ganga_dynasty
    Last edited by discreetmaverick; 04-23-2020 at 10:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    Continuing here as for relevancy,

    None of the Western Ganga rulers was Anantavarman Codaganga, actually, he was son Rajaraja Devendravarman, Ruler of Eastern Ganga dynasty.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Ganga_dynasty

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Ganga_dynasty
    Yes that is correct.
    Choraganga is from Kaling, but his family is noted as being from Kolahalapura in the Gangavadi area.

    This is an interesting read about the interaction between the Gangas and Sens.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=cc9qCwAAQBAJ&pg=PT280
    Last edited by parasar; 04-23-2020 at 04:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    "there is the curious Akkadian word Aratta for a an eastern country with lapis lazuli. This can be the N. Afghanistan area (Badaxšån) from where it has been exported since the 3rd millennium B.C. at least (Kohl 1978:467). The name is found, apart from the similar one of a Mesopotamian city (Arattå), and an adjective (arattū, 'in the manner of Aratta, noble'), as that of an area called Aratta somewhere to the east of Mesopotamia, probably
    beyond the Zagros mountains, or at least east of Anšan (W. Persis); it also seems to be the name of a river in the Zagros.

    Comparable is the name of a tribe in the neighboring Panjab, the Aråtta BŚS 18.44 / Āratta BŚS 18.13, Mbh. tribe in the Panjab. This could, otherwise, be understood as Pråkrtism for a-råstra- (v.l. of BŚS 18.13), cf. the Avestan a-såra, V. 1.19."
    https://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/Lingsit.pdf
    The Hakra ware and early Harappan levels at Bhirdana has lapis lazuli per the ASI.
    "Bhirrana or Birhana is a small village located in Fatehabad District, in the Indian state of Haryana. Bhirrana is the oldest Indus Valley Civilization site, dating back to 7570-6200 BCE. The mound measures 190m north-south and 240m east-west and rises to a height of 5.50 m from the surrounding area of flat alluvial sottar plain ...
    Period-I (A) : Hakra Wares Culture
    The excavation has revealed the remains of the Harappan culture right from its nascent stage, i.e. Hakra Wares Culture (antedating the Known Early Harappan Culture in the subcontinent, also known as Kalibangan-I to a full-fledged Mature Harappan city ...The artefacts of this period comprised a copper bangle, a copper arrow head, bangles of terracotta, beads of carnelian, lapislazuli and steatite, bone point, stone saddle and quern. The pottery repertoire is very rich and the diagnostic wares of this period included Mud Applique Wares, Incised (Deep and Light), Tan/Chocolate Slipped Wares, Brown-on-Buff Wares, Bichrome Wares (Paintings on the exterior with black and white pigments), Black-on-Red Ware and plain red wares...
    Period-I (B) : Early Harappan Culture
    The entire site was occupied during this period. The settlement was an open air one with no fortification. The houses were built of mud bricks of buff colour in the ratio of 3:2:1.The pottery of this period shows all the six fabrics of Kalibangan - I along with many of the Hakra Wares of the earlier period. The artifacts of this period include a seal of quarter-foil shape made of shell, arrowheads, bangles and rings of copper, beads of carnelian, jasper, lapis lazuli, steatite, shell and terracotta, pendents, bull figurines, rattles, wheels, gamesmen, and marbles of terracotta, bangles of terracotta and faience, bone objects, sling balls, marbles and pounders of sandstone.
    ..."
    http://excnagasi.in/excavation_bhirrana.html
    https://www.jstor.org/stable/43610686?seq=1

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    I8506 1738-1623 calBCE (3375±20 BP, PSUAMS-5275) Steppe_MLBA_oBMAC Uzbekistan T Q1a1b1 belongs also to the same clade. Probably the same line
    Turan No R1a1 and one Uzbekistan Q1b2 outlier Sappali_Tepe_BA_o Q1b2-L275>Y1150 (xYP4500, YP3943)

    Swat Valley BC Q and R1a1 samples:
    K1b1a1+199 Q1b2 400-200 BCE I7718 Q1b2-L275>Y1150* (xY1144)
    M5a Q1b2 1000-800 BCE I13228 Q1b2-L275>Y1150 (xYP4500, YP755)
    M5a Q1b2 927-831 calBCE (2745±20 BP, PSUAMS-2793) I5400 Q1b2-L275>Y1150 (xYP4500, YP755)
    M30g Q1a1b1 1000-800 BCE I12134 Q1a1b1-M25>L712>F4747>F5005* Very interesting, IMO.
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post651423

    Turned out to be interesting indeed!
    Davidski: "at least five Khvalynsk males belong to Q1a1b, and some of them are from very rich graves"

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