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Thread: Is there really Basal Eurasian and or Iranian/Caucasus related ancestry in Anatolia?

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    Is there really Basal Eurasian and or Iranian/Caucasus related ancestry in Anatolia?

    Consolidated so people can see what I'm talking about. I can add more stats later to show this better.

    https://populationgenomics.blog/2019...ers-maybe-not/

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    Correct me if i am wrong, you think Basal Eurasian is essentially ANA?

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    If that is the case .. Then Why do we still find a clear difference between the Anatolian ancient samples in general when comparing it with WHG ?
    since Anatolians are basically WHG plus (deep ancestry) .
    Such formation is what resulting a clear differentiation between Anatolia and WHG in admixture analysis / qpadm / etc ..

    below is the PCA graph of the feldman study ; showing Anatolians clustering between European hunter gatherers and ancient levantines .
    therefore its very likely that the G-M201 of the Anatolians was a part of the so called (basal Eurasian) gene pool in the Middle east .

    80721108_625938861479620_2072932237036224512_n.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Correct me if i am wrong, you think Basal Eurasian is essentially ANA?
    looks like i understood in a wrong way then .
    I thought the opposite

    But it actually makes sense if the anatolian Y-DNA G-M201 comes from a Basal Eurasian Autosomal Source .

    The Kebaran culture in this case ? or maybe more older industry in the leavntine corridor

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Saite View Post
    looks like i understood in a wrong way then .
    I thought the opposite

    But it actually makes sense if the anatolian Y-DNA G-M201 comes from a Basal Eurasian Autosomal Source .

    The Kebaran culture in this case ? or maybe more older industry in the leavntine corridor
    Wait, he is suggesting a native Anatolian component (instead of picturing as mixed Basal Eurasian + WHG-like) which influenced Levantines, North Africans up to Zagros Mountains and North India.

    ANA is clearly related to E-M35/E-M78. North Africa/Levant corridor. I am not sure though, i just gave it a quick look to the article, i need to re-read it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Wait, he is suggesting a native Anatolian component (instead of picturing as mixed Basal Eurasian + WHG-like) which influenced Levantines, North Africans up to Zagros Mountains and North India.

    ANA is clearly related to E-M35/E-M78. North Africa/Levant corridor. I am not sure though, i just gave it a quick look to the article, i need to re-read it.


    I agree ; since E-M35 is clearly as you said related to ANA (autosomally speaking) from Lazardis 2018 study .

    However when E-M78 started to spread outside of Africa ; it "lacked" such component apparently or carried it in a small quantity .
    That is why the Iberomaurusians can not be modeled as an Ancestral group that contributed autosoamally to the Natufians (since ancient levant also had E-M78) .
    the problematic part of the qpAdm equation was in the huge amount of ANA that is bieng carried by the Iberomaurusians .

    The best thing that lazardis came up with ; was to say that there was a (taforalt like group) that contributed to the Natufians .
    they will be the Mushabians of the Egyptian Nile-Valley in this case .
    since natufian (in archaeology) are an admixture of the Nile-valley incoming Mushabians and the local Kebaran culture .

    https://dash.harvard.edu/handle/1/31887680

    as been predicted by the genetic studies also regarding the origins , route and diffusion of E-M78 from an Eastern Sahara / Egyptian Refugium

    the interesting thing is .. Ofar-bar yousef (the Author of the the previous paper about Nile valley-Leavnt interactions ; and the whole mushabian - kebaran thing) is also a Co-Author of the Lazardis 2018 study !

    Now ; The person can understand from where did Lazardis came up with the (taforalt like) statement thing !

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    Chad, what is your interpretation of d-stats such as these?

    Chimp Mota Sunghir Peru_RioUncallane_1800BP = Z +4.9
    Mbuti.DG Mota Sunghir Peru_RioUncallane_1800BP = Z +1.6

    Chimp Yoruba.DG Sunghir Peru_RioUncallane_1800BP = Z +5.3
    Mbuti.DG Yoruba.DG Sunghir Peru_RioUncallane_1800BP = Z 0.0

    Chimp Mbuti.DG Ust_Ishim Devils_Gate_N = Z +3.5
    South_Africa_2000BP Mbuti.DG Ust_Ishim Devils_Gate_N = Z -0.9
    Collection of 14,000 d-stats: Hidden Content Part 2: Hidden Content Part 3: Hidden Content PM me for d-stats, qpadm, qpgraph, or f3-outgroup nmonte models.

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    That's part of the artifact issue. That's why I think avoiding the use of Africans is important to building trees for Eurasians. The Native samples are closer to both Mbuti and Mota than Sunghir.

    On a related note, I am going to add more graphs and stats, including Barcin N. This will show only Barcin needs North African ancestry.
    Last edited by Chad Rohlfsen; 12-31-2019 at 07:06 PM.

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    Could you describe in more detail the nature of the artifact issue you suspect?
    I'm thinking it may be the opposite. It's not that Peru and Devil's Gate are closer to Africans... but rather Sunghir and Ust_Ishim are closer to Chimp.
    I suspect 3 potential factors at work...
    1) Greater DNA degradation in older samples... I suspect this is a slight effect if any, because lower quality Native samples weren't really favored over higher quality ones in some other stats I ran.
    2) Slightly higher Neanderthal in older samples. Neanderthal branching off before Africans would slightly skew the stat towards the less Archaic, more recent population.

    But most important 3)
    The 1240k panel includes as a subset the ~600k snp HumanOrigins panel that is derived from variation ascertained from a variety of modern day populations. The 1240k from what I've been able to gather was also produced by HumanOrigins, so I assume they would've ascertained those the same way? If that's the case, and d-stats check only for snps shared between populations and not derived snps shared, then this could present a problem for really old populations that aren't really anybody's direct ancestors. Ust_Ishim for example, not being particularly close to any Eurasian pop, will lack an assortment of derived alleles found in say East-Asians, Oceanians, Native Americans, Europeans, South Asians, West Asians, etc. that the snp panel was ascertained from. Chimp would also lack derived alleles in these same spots because obviously Chimps aren't human. The effect may also happen with Africans, but probably to a significantly lesser extent because the 600k HumanOrigins panel also has Denisovans, and so Africans should share a ton of derived alleles with all modern humans as a result.
    Last edited by Kale; 01-01-2020 at 05:36 AM.
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    It is not Chimp. The same thing happens to the graphs without Chimp. Africans want admixture from certain pops more than others. It is an issue that I think can be worked around for the most part. You have to keep African and modern East Asian pops out though.

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