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Thread: Is there really Basal Eurasian and or Iranian/Caucasus related ancestry in Anatolia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JRD View Post
    One could try via Genoplot, but I don't know how to subtract more than 50%, more than two components at once, or repeteadly subtract. It's certainly possible, given that one guy managed to get a ghost population he named something along the lines of "Balto-Slavic drift ghost HG", which is similar to WHG-rich Baltic HGs. Complicating the picture, Pinarbasi (and possibly Anatolian HGs as a whole) has possibly a little ANA and CHG, as well as certainly EHG/AG3-like ANE and more recent WHG-like stuff, which show up in the autosomes (as something similar to the Koros HG, which shows up in models even when removing the Pinarbasi-like portion), Y-DNA (I2c), and mtDNA (U5b2).
    MS Excel, Libreoffice Spreadsheets or something alike works for combining or substracting components. Just how much WHG needs to be substracted?
    Last edited by Norfern-Ostrobothnian; 09-26-2020 at 05:50 AM.

  2. #42
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    I have a bunch of models with simulated sources for Middle Eastern Ancients. Their accuracy is not guaranteed however.
    Attachment 39837Attachment 39838
    Attached Images Attached Images
    • File Type: png 1.png (80.4 KB, 37 views)
    • File Type: png 2.png (42.2 KB, 26 views)
    • File Type: png 3.png (93.9 KB, 36 views)
    Last edited by Korotyr; 09-26-2020 at 07:36 AM.

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  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norfern-Ostrobothnian View Post
    MS Excel, Libreoffice Spreadsheets or something alike works for combining or substracting components. Just how much WHG needs to be substracted?
    With Pinarbasi (or maybe ANF groups like Barcin) standing in for Dzudzuana, something in the neighborhood of 72% WHG would be a good start (like in the admixture graph in Figure 2 here). It doesn't have to be perfect. I'm just curious where the "basal" remainder would end up in PCA space.
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    If this graph is accurate, it means that basal eurasian is mainly in the arabian peninsula/north africa and europe (except finland and estonia)? Because ust ishim is supposed to be equally related to east and west eurasians. So all the populations he has less affinity to have more of the “ghost” ancestry.
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    I made both from Pinarbasi and Barcin.

    Code:
    TUR_Pinarbasi_HG_-72%_WHG,0.086017,0.29581,-0.368768,-0.782032,-0.144864,-0.262834,-0.054823,-0.089238,-0.059574,0.238729,0.060917,0.073307,-0.117356,-0.025636,-0.287416,-0.162935,0.144949,-0.051978,0.05265,-0.147411,-0.292361,-0.016851,0.115236,0.38052,-0.063826
    TUR_Barcin_N_-72%_WHG,0.099505429,0.344278,-0.462560286,-0.847996,-0.215356214,-0.292218071,-0.049406286,-0.120592857,-0.099650214,0.242694071,0.067930571,0.0830865,-0.1246685,0.009460357,-0.287085929,-0.186071357,0.070338214,-0.034929857,0.072830286,-0.177760643,-0.2936965,-0.008160214,0.112835143,0.402349,-0.059239071
    From Pinarbasi it is closer to other populations, while the distances for both are drastic.
    Distance to: TUR_Pinarbasi_HG_-72%_WHG
    0.18405985 TUR_Barcin_N_-72%_WHG
    1.06070497 TUR_Barcin_N
    1.09289555 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    1.51791038 WHG

    Distance to: TUR_Barcin_N_-72%_WHG
    0.18405985 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG_-72%_WHG
    1.18198063 TUR_Barcin_N
    1.21875983 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    1.64163976 WHG

    However, this study seems to show 44% Basal Eurasian for EEF alone.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4170574/
    Code:
    TUR_Barcin_N_-56%_WHG,0.108644,0.261368909,-0.227160545,-0.470805091,-0.0808105,-0.169071318,-0.026654727,-0.063189091,-0.0310245,0.160902773,0.037648364,0.047123773,-0.073550318,0.004919318,-0.163295409,-0.097243045,0.046586136,-0.016285182,0.042964182,-0.092906227,-0.152549227,-0.001123591,0.053765273,0.197543545,-0.031514136
    Last edited by Norfern-Ostrobothnian; 09-26-2020 at 09:07 AM.

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    Hello

    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Anybody with the requisite knowledge care to actually make a G25 simulation of a Basal Eurasian? Maybe the easiest way would be to subtract a WHG-related sample from Pinarbasi? I'd be very curious where a Basal sample would plot on a world PCA. It seems pretty obvious an ANA sample would plot near the SSAs based on where Iberomaurusians cluster, but I have no idea where Basal would land.
    So ANA is a sister branch to SSA then?
    Last edited by davit; 09-26-2020 at 11:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norfern-Ostrobothnian View Post
    However, this study seems to show 44% Basal Eurasian for EEF alone.
    Yeah, there are wildly different estimates out there. The 44% figure is from the Lazaridis study that broke the news that Basal existed. And then a few years later you have a totally different estimate from the same author.

    I happen to think the more recent estimates are more likely to be correct, that Basal has always been only a minor element in even the most basal-rich samples we have.

    And wow-- fantastic! Thank you kindly for creating those sims. I'm quite pleased with your results. Here's where the sims cluster on a world PCA:
     


    On West Eurasia PCA:
     


    This one here (West Eurasia + Sub-Saharan Africans) illustrates the trends across West Eurasia quite well:
     


    Would you mind also creating an ANA sim? Subtracting 55% Pinarbasi from Taforalt should give you a fair approximation of ANA. I expect the sim will cluster with the SSAs but I'm still very curious. Please give it a go if you have the time!
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  11. #48
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    Here's my attempt at ANA:
    ANA_(simulated):Taforalt-50%Pinarbasi,-0.493537,-0.003656,-0.078366,-0.088502,-0.015511,-0.07028,-0.135319,0.034983,0.263345,-0.072639,0.035823,-0.072805,0.170841,-0.093308,0.184471,-0.068894,-0.033665,-0.129425,-0.292878,0.079238,-0.061516,-0.254403,0.149475,-0.018244,0.038534

    It can be modeled as a two way mix of Mota and Taforalt-related simulated drift using the previously shown Ghosts.
    If anyone is curious about the ghosts. Download it here and open with your browser, it is a Vahaduo .htm file with all the sources and targets.
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Non...ew?usp=sharing

    5.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Yeah, there are wildly different estimates out there. The 44% figure is from the Lazaridis study that broke the news that Basal existed. And then a few years later you have a totally different estimate from the same author.

    I happen to think the more recent estimates are more likely to be correct, that Basal has always been only a minor element in even the most basal-rich samples we have.

    And wow-- fantastic! Thank you kindly for creating those sims. I'm quite pleased with your results. Here's where the sims cluster on a world PCA:
     


    On West Eurasia PCA:
     


    This one here (West Eurasia + Sub-Saharan Africans) illustrates the trends across West Eurasia quite well:
     


    Would you mind also creating an ANA sim? Subtracting 55% Pinarbasi from Taforalt should give you a fair approximation of ANA. I expect the sim will cluster with the SSAs but I'm still very curious. Please give it a go if you have the time!
    I'm fairly new to this stuff so forgive me if these are dumb questions.

    Does this mean basal Eurasians are at the end of the Eurasian cline and more distant to Africans and East Asians than West Eurasians? Are basal Eurasians the true West Eurasians and West Eurasians actually something like Central Eurasians (in between Basal Eurasians and East Eurasians).

    Also is ANA a sister branch of SSAs or Eurasians or neither?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Korotyr View Post
    Here's my attempt at ANA:
    ANA_(simulated):Taforalt-50%Pinarbasi,-0.493537,-0.003656,-0.078366,-0.088502,-0.015511,-0.07028,-0.135319,0.034983,0.263345,-0.072639,0.035823,-0.072805,0.170841,-0.093308,0.184471,-0.068894,-0.033665,-0.129425,-0.292878,0.079238,-0.061516,-0.254403,0.149475,-0.018244,0.038534
    Thank you! A lot of fun to have something like this to play with.

    Quote Originally Posted by davit View Post
    Does this mean basal Eurasians are at the end of the Eurasian cline and more distant to Africans and East Asians than West Eurasians?
    The conventional view is that Basal Eurasians postdate the Eurasian bottleneck ("Out of Africa event"), but predate the Neanderthal admixture event characteristic of Crown Eurasian populations. They should therefore be far removed from Sub-Saharan Africans but equally related to Western Crown Eurasians (like Kostenki, Goyet, WHGs, ANEs, etc.) and Eastern Crown Eurasians (Tianyuan, East Asians, Australasians). West Eurasians are believed to be the result of hybridization between Western Crown Eurasian lineages and Basal Eurasians. The earliest known example of this ancestry profile is Dzudzuana (26kya). So Basal Eurasians are definitely more distant to East Asians than to West Eurasians, but only because the latter have Basal admixture.

    Quote Originally Posted by davit View Post
    Are basal Eurasians the true West Eurasians and West Eurasians actually something like Central Eurasians (in between Basal Eurasians and East Eurasians).
    I'm agnostic about that. The truth is Basal Eurasian is a statistical concept. It exists to explain the reduced Neanderthal ancestry in ancient and modern West Eurasians relative to ancient European/Siberian and East Eurasian hunter-gatherers (and their descendants). Some people have different ideas about how this lesser Neanderthal admixture can be explained. A poster here named Kale has postulated that Ust Ishim was a kind of early East Eurasian and that the reason WHGs and company have more Neanderthal ancestry than Anatolia Neolithic et al was because the Euro-Siberians admixed with early East Eurasian types that had more Neanderthal ancestry. I don't have a firm opinion about this, but I'm sticking with the conventional view for now.

    Quote Originally Posted by davit View Post
    Also is ANA a sister branch of SSAs or Eurasians or neither?
    Nobody knows exactly what they are yet.
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