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Thread: Is there really Basal Eurasian and or Iranian/Caucasus related ancestry in Anatolia?

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    Looking at some of my models for the basal rich samples has made me start to suspect that there may in fact be distinctly different strains of Basal Eurasian/Neanderthal diluting ancestry, with one seemingly closer to ANA + AEA/SSA and the other strain being from a more distinctly Eurasian population. Perhaps qpgraph could be used to check if something like that that is plausible.
    Last edited by Mnemonics; 09-28-2020 at 07:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davit View Post
    I'm fairly new to this stuff so forgive me if these are dumb questions.

    Does this mean basal Eurasians are at the end of the Eurasian cline and more distant to Africans and East Asians than West Eurasians? Are basal Eurasians the true West Eurasians and West Eurasians actually something like Central Eurasians (in between Basal Eurasians and East Eurasians).

    Also is ANA a sister branch of SSAs or Eurasians or neither?
    No, west eurasians are WHG and ANE. They all descend from a common ancestor ust ishim man 45,000 years ago (same as asians, melanesians). Basal eurasian is something older and more divergent from them all. It is its own population, not close to any of them. It is mixed in present day west eurasians but not ancient ones. Probably associated with haplogroup e1b1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bbgum View Post
    No, west eurasians are WHG and ANE. They all descend from a common ancestor ust ishim man 45,000 years ago (same as asians, melanesians). Basal eurasian is something older and more divergent from them all. It is its own population, not close to any of them. It is mixed in present day west eurasians but not ancient ones. Probably associated with haplogroup e1b1
    There isn't much E1b in Basal rich ancient Iranians though?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Thank you! A lot of fun to have something like this to play with.



    The conventional view is that Basal Eurasians postdate the Eurasian bottleneck ("Out of Africa event"), but predate the Neanderthal admixture event characteristic of Crown Eurasian populations. They should therefore be far removed from Sub-Saharan Africans but equally related to Western Crown Eurasians (like Kostenki, Goyet, WHGs, ANEs, etc.) and Eastern Crown Eurasians (Tianyuan, East Asians, Australasians). West Eurasians are believed to be the result of hybridization between Western Crown Eurasian lineages and Basal Eurasians. The earliest known example of this ancestry profile is Dzudzuana (26kya). So Basal Eurasians are definitely more distant to East Asians than to West Eurasians, but only because the latter have Basal admixture.



    I'm agnostic about that. The truth is Basal Eurasian is a statistical concept. It exists to explain the reduced Neanderthal ancestry in ancient and modern West Eurasians relative to ancient European/Siberian and East Eurasian hunter-gatherers (and their descendants). Some people have different ideas about how this lesser Neanderthal admixture can be explained. A poster here named Kale has postulated that Ust Ishim was a kind of early East Eurasian and that the reason WHGs and company have more Neanderthal ancestry than Anatolia Neolithic et al was because the Euro-Siberians admixed with early East Eurasian types that had more Neanderthal ancestry. I don't have a firm opinion about this, but I'm sticking with the conventional view for now.



    Nobody knows exactly what they are yet.

    I'm confused on how BEs can postdate the OOA event if ydna E is linked to ANA. What else would be left besides some subclass of F (G or H being the most likely)?

    Shouldn't West Eurasians actually be a mixture of Common West Eurasians, Basal Eurasians, ANA/SSAs and East Eurasians? The latter two groups contributed the majority of ydna I believe (SSA-E and East Eurasians-K1/LT + K2b/PQR)?

    If ANAs cluster with SSAs then they are at least a sister branch no?

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    It is better to think about it in terms of bottlenecks than events. The basal Eurasians come from the Eurasian forming bottleneck. backtoAfricaModel.png For all we know, the bottleneck that made the distinction between OOA Eurasians vs pure Africans could have taken place within Africa, like north Africa. In that possible scenario, ANA would be like an early post bottleneck 'Eurasian'-like leftover population. The basals in Asia would be the ones that separated later before the Neanderthal admixture or very early on in the process.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mnemonics View Post
    Looking at some of my models for the basal rich samples has made me start to suspect that there may in fact be distinctly different strains of Basal Eurasian/Neanderthal diluting ancestry, with one seemingly closer to ANA + AEA/SSA and the other strain being from a more distinctly Eurasian population. Perhaps qpgraph could be used to check if something like that that is plausible.
    What are you detecting in your models?

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    Quote Originally Posted by davit View Post
    I'm confused on how BEs can postdate the OOA event if ydna E is linked to ANA. What else would be left besides some subclass of F (G or H being the most likely)?
    No one knows what Basal Eurasian haplogroups are; we can only guess. But remember, this was a very long time ago. You can imagine some very old lineages that might have faded into obscurity even during the Paleolithic. Haplogroups associated with non-Basal Eurasian groups might have become super-dominant in the Middle East. Look at the success story of the WHG Y-chromosome I and its strong representation in Early European farmers. And that wasn't even that long ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by davit View Post
    Shouldn't West Eurasians actually be a mixture of Common West Eurasians, Basal Eurasians, ANA/SSAs and East Eurasians?
    That's right. In different proportions throughout the range, of course. There's probably so little ANA (if any) in some northern groups it's not worth talking about. There's probably some East Eurasian in ANE but who knows how much. Dzudzuana-like ancestry forms the core of the West Eurasian super-population. In the westerly areas, you have more WHG admixture, in the northerly and easterly areas you have more ANE, in the southerly areas you have ANA influences. But the common core is a mixture between what you just called Common West Eurasian (basically Villabruna-related) and Basal Eurasian.

    Quote Originally Posted by davit View Post
    If ANAs cluster with SSAs then they are at least a sister branch no?
    We need a lot more from Africa to say what's going on there. Tropical Africans might be some kind of admixture between something like ANA/proto-Eurasian predecessors in Africa (Neo-Africans) and more basal human populations (Paleo-Africans). I think Y-haplogroup E will turn out to be a "Neo-African" haplogroup. You see it outside of Africa because of Iberomaurusian-like gene flow into Natufians. And then later (albeit minor) sub-Saharan influences.
    Last edited by Michalis Moriopoulos; 09-29-2020 at 05:30 PM.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davit View Post
    I'm confused on how BEs can postdate the OOA event if ydna E is linked to ANA. What else would be left besides some subclass of F (G or H being the most likely)?

    Shouldn't West Eurasians actually be a mixture of Common West Eurasians, Basal Eurasians, ANA/SSAs and East Eurasians? The latter two groups contributed the majority of ydna I believe (SSA-E and East Eurasians-K1/LT + K2b/PQR)?

    If ANAs cluster with SSAs then they are at least a sister branch no?

    The group that Belong to haplogroup K-M9 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K-M9
    are all from central Asia...............the Ydna I is an earlier splitter

    So, Ydna of I and J does not have K-M9 snp ............and no idea where it originates

    No idea where ydna E originates


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483 )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-L22 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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    We don't know where Basal Eurasians were and we don't know where haplogroup E was hiding, but chances are high that both were connected.

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