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Thread: Is there really Basal Eurasian and or Iranian/Caucasus related ancestry in Anatolia?

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max_H View Post
    I don't think there is any SSA admixture in most West Eurasians. ANA itself is very low outside the Middle East and I personally doubt it's SSA. Certainly more Eurasian than not on most models I have seen.

    As for East Eurasian ancestry, there is quite a bit of it in West Eurasians, indeed.

    Doesn't Taforalt plot pretty much half way between West Eurasians and SSA population and is about 45% ANA? Obviously there is ANA ancestry in SSA so that might affect the plotting but that seems to indicate to me a pure ANA population would plot with SSA or close to them populations (with or without ANA).

    The East Eurasian ancestry can't be more than 10% though? Since I think it peaks in Iran_N and CHG so are about 10% ENA with EHG, WHG, Anatolia_N, and Levant_N less than 5% ENA. I guess we also need to add the ENA in ANE but that seems to change depending on the paper and the model.
    Last edited by davit; 10-18-2020 at 09:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    No i don't. I am not too sure about Basal Eurasian and ANA, i have read various blocks, some of them indicating that they represent a single element with varying mixture. While others think they are both real components. Who knows.

    From what i understand is that, ANA-rich populations during Paleolithic/Mesolithic were the tallest and most robust human race (superficially resembling Paleolithic/Mesolithic Europeans, probably due to covergent evolution), while Basal-rich populations were a bit more smaller stature and more refined in features, something like Proto-Mediterranean.
    I think a lot of people are leaning towards basal not being a real thing. Probably deserves its own thread.

    Do you know what the heights of ANA, WHG, EHG and ANE would have been?

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    Quote Originally Posted by davit View Post
    Doesn't Taforalt plot pretty much half way between West Eurasians and SSA population and is about 45% ANA?
    That's in my opinion an oxymoron, because what creates a lot of the distance between Subsaharan Africans and West Eurasians is not primarily ANA, but the older layers found in Africa before ANA expanded there. Like both older layers of Homo sapiens and possibly/likely archaic Homo forms, like that of Iwo Eleru. Therefore a population with about 45 % ANA shouldn't plot that close to Subsaharans, but just shifted towards them:



    https://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6388/548

    In fact they are between Afar and Yemeni, with their "Subsaharan" ("ANA-like") impossible to clearly assign to West or East Africans, because its at the root, as the latest and most modern addition to all modern Subsaharans. Its distance to West Eurasians is much smaller, because it lacks the other components of modern Subsaharan.

    Obviously there is ANA ancestry in SSA so that might affect the plotting but that seems to indicate to me a pure ANA population would plot with SSA or close to them populations (with or without ANA).
    Subsaharan = ANA-like plus older African admixture. The ANA were pushed out of the Green Sahara by successive waves of Basal Eurasian-West Eurasian plus deteriorating climatic conditions. This led to their intrusion into the more Southern lake-river and finally even tropical zone and this produced, with admixture from older layers, fully developed modern Subsaharans. They didn't exist before this push of an ANA-like population down the river-lack systems of the drying Sahara, which brought haplogroup E into Subsaharan Africa. That's why you won't find it before this, like Shum Laka was showing.
    Last edited by Riverman; 10-18-2020 at 11:45 PM. Reason: image-link corrected

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    That's in my opinion an oxymoron, because what creates a lot of the distance between Subsaharan Africans and West Eurasians is not primarily ANA, but the older layers found in Africa before ANA expanded there. Like both older layers of Homo sapiens and possibly/likely archaic Homo forms, like that of Iwo Eleru. Therefore a population with about 45 % ANA shouldn't plot that close to Subsaharans, but just shifted towards them:



    https://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6388/548

    In fact they are between Afar and Yemeni, with their "Subsaharan" ("ANA-like") impossible to clearly assign to West or East Africans, because its at the root, as the latest and most modern addition to all modern Subsaharans. Its distance to West Eurasians is much smaller, because it lacks the other components of modern Subsaharan.



    Subsaharan = ANA-like plus older African admixture. The ANA were pushed out of the Green Sahara by successive waves of Basal Eurasian-West Eurasian plus deteriorating climatic conditions. This led to their intrusion into the more Southern lake-river and finally even tropical zone and this produced, with admixture from older layers, fully developed modern Subsaharans. They didn't exist before this push of an ANA-like population down the river-lack systems of the drying Sahara, which brought haplogroup E into Subsaharan Africa. That's why you won't find it before this, like Shum Laka was showing.
    This makes more sense than what I was saying for sure. Thanks for the explanation.

    Would both ANA and Basal Eurasian-West Eurasians back migrating all be associated with y E?

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    Quote Originally Posted by davit View Post
    This makes more sense than what I was saying for sure. Thanks for the explanation.

    Would both ANA and Basal Eurasian-West Eurasians back migrating all be associated with y E?
    Yes, just different branches, one after another. Only the later migrations got significantly more diverse as it seems. Its not by chance that Natufians were so E-dominated. Its fascinating that Yemenis have now a rather low frequency of E, but I guess that this is a fairly recent, metal age phenomenon, but surely not before the developed Neolithic. Before that, I expect especially Southern Arabia-Yemen to be part of the Basal Eurasian heartland(s) and high in haplogroup E.
    I mean that's my current best interpretation, new results might turn a lot upside down, either for me, or if proving my position, for the others - or probably for all, if the results from the Near East being unexpected for everyone, which is a possibility too. We just need Paleolithic samples from Egypt, Palestine/Levante and Southern Arabia/Yemen in particular to be sure about anything concerning ANA, Basal Eurasian and haplogroup E.

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    Maybe ANA will indeed turn out to be a pre-Eurasian bottleneck ancestor of Basal Eurasians phylogenetically, but the drift from the bottleneck can't be underestimated if PCA is any indication. BE and ANA must have been very different populations based on where Taforalt clusters in PCA space relative to Pinarbasi and Dzudzuana. Taforalt is clearly intermediate between the Near Eastern space and something that must be located in the SSA orbit, even if it's not exactly SSA.

    Simulated BE courtesy of Northern Ostrobothnian:
     
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    What's the most pristine West Eurasian ancient sample? A sample that lacks both ANA and East Eurasian/ANE? Is it the WHG?

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    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    What's the most pristine West Eurasian ancient sample? A sample that lacks both ANA and East Eurasian/ANE? Is it the WHG?
    Currently its still Dzudzuana I'd say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drobbah View Post
    What's the most pristine West Eurasian ancient sample? A sample that lacks both ANA and East Eurasian/ANE? Is it the WHG?
    Dzudzuana theoretically. But Pinarbasi (Anatolia Hunter-Gatherer) works, too, since it's descended from Dzudzuana-like people without the ANA or ANE influences that other Post-Glacial Near Easterners have.
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    Like I said, Northern Ostrobothnian made three Basal Eurasian sims for me. One is based on the assumption that Pinarbasi can be modelled as 72% WHG-like and the rest Basal Eurasian. The second is based on subtracting 72% WHG from Barcin Neo instead of Pinarbasi. And the third is based on the more classic Lazaridis assumption that Barcin was 56% WHG-like and the rest Basal Eurasian. Similarly, Korotyr made an ANA sim by subtracting 50% Pinarbasi (this is as close as we can get to Dzudzuana) from Taforalt, under the assumption that about half of Iberomaurusian ancestry was Dzudzuana-like and the remainder ANA. This is where the sims plot on a Global PCA:

     

    One might wonder why the Basal Eurasians plot closer to the Western Crowns than to the Eastern Crowns, especially if they are symmetrically related. This might be illusory; maybe this PCA can't capture that in only two dimensions. PCA doesn't always give you what you expect anyway. Amerinds don't really plot where you'd expect if they were East Asian-ANE hybrids, probably because of drift unique to them. So PCA has have its limits when expressing phylogenetic relationships. Below is what I got when I got rid of all the Basal-mixed pops (so all West Eurasians and West Eurasian mixtures are eliminated), limiting the PCA to SSAs and Crown Eurasians:

     


    Here's the same without the Amerinds:

     


    Another with just the Western Crowns and SSAs:

     


    The same, but with the Western Crowns removed:

     


    And now an SSA-only PCA:

     


    Very interesting where ANA plots there. I might suggest the possibility of two clines here: ANA to Basal Human (with West Africans in the middle), and ANA to standard Paleo-African (San-like). Notice that the Northeast African HG-descended pops (Nilote-like) and the Southeast African HG pops (Mota-like) are drawn toward the ANA reference. This might suggest that the Mota-like populations are similar to ANA, but with Paleo-African mixture that's more like what's in the San. The West Africans might have a type of ghost ancestry that's also deep, and perhaps more basal to what's in the San. The Nilote-like populations are intermediate between the West Africans and ANA.

    All speculation and these are only sims, but it's fun to think about.
    Last edited by Michalis Moriopoulos; 10-19-2020 at 02:10 AM.
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