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Thread: Origin of Ice-Europeans and WHG

  1. #11
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    You probably won't need basal Eurasians for any of this. Pinarbasi models fine as a separate branch of West Eurasians. WHG as a mix of Dzudzuana, Gravettian, ANE and maybe minor Goyet via Magdalenians make much more sense.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rohlfsen View Post
    You probably won't need basal Eurasians for any of this. Pinarbasi models fine as a separate branch of West Eurasians. WHG as a mix of Dzudzuana, Gravettian, ANE and maybe minor Goyet via Magdalenians make much more sense.
    Sorry can you go into more detail for a pleb like me? Don't Anatolian Hunter Gatherers have 20-24.8 basal? How can Pinarbasi be used as model?

  3. #13
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    Pinarbasi needs no basal Eurasian when you don't try to shove WHG into it.

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    Look at the last post in my blog.

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    All those clusters came out in the same paper in 2016 and i still dont really get it. What exactly differentiate Kostenki from Goyet but the fact that Goyet has ties with Tianyuan? Why is Goyet in El Miron Cluster and not El Miron in Goyet Cluster? As far as i remember both Kostenki and Goyet were " Unassigned " to any Cluster, but now, Sungir, Kostenki are appartently related to Vestonice. It was said that Goyet and Kostenki/Sungir came from the same gene pool, so how do they not cluster together in some ways?

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  8. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diictodon View Post
    Although there are people who say that Villabruna cluster be just a mixture of Gravettian and ANE
    I read recently that archaeology supports a Siberia > Europe transmission during the Epigravettian. (sorry I don't remember which paper)
    But how do explain the occurrence of Villabruna related ancestry in the 36,000-23,000 kya Vestonice cluster/Gravettians if Villabruna was just a mixed epi-paleolithic component of ANE+Gravettian?
    Gravettian-Kostenki-Sunghir all form a basic clade, and Gravettians are partially along the drift path to WHG, so achronologically, they can be modeled as part 'child' part 'parent' if that makes any sense?
    Collection of 14,000 d-stats: Hidden Content Part 2: Hidden Content Part 3: Hidden Content PM me for d-stats, qpadm, qpgraph, or f3-outgroup nmonte models.

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  10. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diictodon View Post
    Yes, the problem with Dzudzuana lies the fact that they carried an 'UGH' component that was 2/3 of their genome. UHG seems very Villabruna-like, so where did that originate from? The Levantine Aurignacian? That's between 40-26,000 kya which is a long way off the end of LGM. Can you explain to me what population contributed 35.711.3% ancestry to UP European hunter gatherers related to Sunghir (Vestonice cluster?) and 60.611.3% to El Miron Cluster in Qu Fu 2016 paper if Villabruna was just a mixed epi-paleolithic component of ANE+Gravettian? What do you mean "something related to Dzudzuana"? You mean a ghost UHG that is unadmixed that lurked somewhere in Europe without the basal? How is that different from I was proposing (i.e. an West Eurasian HG that contributed ancestry to both PaleoEuropeans and Near Easterners)?
    These components are just *modeled* that way. But it could be that the actual ancestry is really the other way around: Vestonice contributed to Villabruna and something admixed in El Miron as well. The Dzudzuana paper actually showed that Villabruna could be modeled as half Dzudzuana, a third Vestonice and a tad ANE.

    EDIT: Although the 2/3 UHG in Dzudzuana dated to 26,000 years ago might also be used as an argument for the existence of unadmixed WHG component. But the vanilla WHG would then have to be situated more towards Europe, where no Basal Eurasian admixture would be. The Balkans were a suitable refuge during the LGM and had a local Gravettian population.
    Last edited by epoch; 01-11-2020 at 03:53 PM.

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  12. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    I read recently that archaeology supports a Siberia > Europe transmission during the Epigravettian. (sorry I don't remember which paper)

    Gravettian-Kostenki-Sunghir all form a basic clade, and Gravettians are partially along the drift path to WHG, so achronologically, they can be modeled as part 'child' part 'parent' if that makes any sense?
    O that's a pity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    All those clusters came out in the same paper in 2016 and i still dont really get it. What exactly differentiate Kostenki from Goyet but the fact that Goyet has ties with Tianyuan? Why is Goyet in El Miron Cluster and not El Miron in Goyet Cluster? As far as i remember both Kostenki and Goyet were " Unassigned " to any Cluster, but now, Sungir, Kostenki are appartently related to Vestonice. It was said that Goyet and Kostenki/Sungir came from the same gene pool, so how do they not cluster together in some ways?
    Goyet in Miron cluster comes from the same cave as the Aurignacian Goyet but they are different from different periods.

  14. #20
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    Goyet-2 is Magdalenian, but Goyet116-1 is Aurignacian. The other Goyet samples are Gravettian.

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