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Thread: A pentagon of Dutch recent Ancestry in Global 25

  1. #1
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    A pentagon of Dutch recent Ancestry in Global 25

    I am interested in modelling recent ancestors of the Dutch. With recent ancestors I mean post Beaker.
    The ever growing Eurogenes Global 25 is a promising dataset. In this post I present a summary of the Dutch samples in Global 25 and Anthrogenica.

    When I model a Dutch target by running a shotgun nMonte on a large subset of the Global 25, I get different ancestors for each target.
    (I know, Generalissimo. This is a bad modelling practice, but I do have a plan.)
    My strategy is to first get familiar with the 'usual suspects'. Next I want to create a common model with only a few referents, which is sufficient for most or even all of the Dutch samples.

    As targets I have myself (South Dutch), Finn (a proud North Dutch) and Radboud (who is more Central Dutch). Also there is Pylsteen whom I shall leave out for the moment because he has an exotic ancestry.
    And I have the 15 Dutch samples in the Global 25.

    The 'usual suspects' turned out to be:
    Germany_Medieval, the 10 Bayern samples (without skull deformation)
    England_Roman, N=6
    Scotland_LBA, N=4
    Nordic_IA, N=1, unfortunately
    French_modern N=34

    Of course French_modern is not an ancestor of the Dutch, but I need them to capture the North-South cline of the Dutch.
    The alternative Beaker_Southern_France is too dominant a Beaker (captures anything) and France_MLN is too ancient.

    The admixture percentages are summarized in the next box.
    Paste the next lines into a spreadsheet:

    Scotland_LBA England_Roman Germany_Medieval Nordic_IA French distance%
    Global25 Dutch 25.8 25.0 22.4 8.6 18.2 0.3511
    Huijbregts 0.0 17.2 76.0 0.0 6.8 0.6175
    Radboud 47.6 28.4 10.4 0.0 13.6 0.6405
    Finn 6.2 19.2 28.6 42.2 3.8 0.4274

    The admixtures of the the three Dutch Anthrogenica members are quite different.
    The median of the 15 Global 25 samples seems to be a union of the three types.

    Some remarks about the methodology:
    I did not succeed in compiling a working scheme with all 25 dimensions; so I used only the first 15.
    Instead of averages I have used medians, because they are less sensitive to outliers and overlap.
    The models are penalized in nMonte3. For the three individual samples penalizing has hardly influence on the results, but with the median of the 15 Dutch samples in 'Global 25, I could only get 5 admixtures in the model by penalizing.
    Instead of averages I have used medians, because they are less sensitive to outliers and overlap.
    I prefer to work with unscaled data. The columns of the unscaled data have more or less the same variance; scaling the data de-normalizes them, which makes modelling less robust.
    Last edited by Huijbregts; 03-23-2018 at 08:38 PM.

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  3. #2
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    How about "Fake Dutch?"
    Dad is German, British, Belgian, Ashkenazi and a little French Flanders (Lille), but his single populations typically rest in South Dutch, and sometimes close to Pylsteen's:


    ,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
    Dewslothdad,0.0111,0.0136,0.0124,0.0073,0.0121,0.0 039,0.0033,0.0016,0.0044,0.0071,-0.003,0.0043,-0.007,-0.0047,0.0087,0.0022,-0.0011,0.0006,-0.0014,0.0028,-0.0003,0.0042,-0.0041,0.0054,0.0018

    He also scores 70+ for 3 of the non-ACD Bavarians and 2 of the ACD Bavarians on Tolan's K36 chart.
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

  4. #3
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    The only thing I can state about this, and of course it's a view from an historian, so less in to facts and figures, sorry for that

    My impression is that the North Dutch are a combination of "proto Celtic" influences so from BB, Unetice, Tumulus, Urnfield. Until the end of the Roman period the Frisians spoke Celtic (Schrijver 2017) below the rivers and in central area there was already a Latin influence (again Schrijver 2017).
    In the migration time the Saxons/Chauci came first and afterwards the Jutes and Norwegians (Nicolay 2006). The influence of them (especially the Nordics) was most heavily around the coastal area's and in the western parts of Friesland. Drenthe staid a little more Bronze Age....
    North Dutch as a whole staid since the migration age more or less stabile, although there was a NW German influx (season labor). After the decline of the prosperous agriculture (that belongs and belonged to the most advanced in Europe) more people went than came. That contributed to a kind of consolidation.
    The history of the population in Central Dutch (much more urban) and in the South (much more connected with Central-West Europe) is different I guess.....
    Last edited by Finn; 03-23-2018 at 09:30 PM.

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    I wonder what the impact was of the seemingly ongoing immigration from Germany since medieval times. Especially both Niedersachsen and NRW seem sources of immigration to the Northeast, to Overijssel (Hanze connection), the cities in the west, the borderland in Limburg, and from NRW downstream the Rhine in the river area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pylsteen View Post
    I wonder what the impact was of the seemingly ongoing immigration from Germany since medieval times. Especially both Niedersachsen and NRW seem sources of immigration to the Northeast, to Overijssel (Hanze connection), the cities in the west, the borderland in Limburg, and from NRW downstream the Rhine in the river area.
    In Friesland and Groningen too Pylsteen, Hannekemaaiers, little cotters from Westphallia they were working during summer on the big farms along the coast. Later on merchandise people (kramers) selling clothes (like the later famous C&A Brenninkmeyer) or the just recent went broke big stores of Vroom and Dreesmann.
    Last edited by Finn; 03-23-2018 at 10:01 PM.

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  10. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dewsloth View Post
    How about "Fake Dutch?"
    Dad is German, British, Belgian, Ashkenazi and a little French Flanders (Lille), but his single populations typically rest in South Dutch, and sometimes close to Pylsteen's:


    ,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
    Dewslothdad,0.0111,0.0136,0.0124,0.0073,0.0121,0.0 039,0.0033,0.0016,0.0044,0.0071,-0.003,0.0043,-0.007,-0.0047,0.0087,0.0022,-0.0011,0.0006,-0.0014,0.0028,-0.0003,0.0042,-0.0041,0.0054,0.0018

    He also scores 70+ for 3 of the non-ACD Bavarians and 2 of the ACD Bavarians on Tolan's K36 chart.
    What I learned from this exercise is that populations like Dutch German, British and Belgian are so much overlapping that you can only compare results if they were calculated with exactly the same setup.
    I will have a look at the sample of your father tomorrow. I hope he doesn't have too much Ashkenazi, for that is not among the standard referents.

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  12. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dewsloth View Post
    How about "Fake Dutch?"
    Dad is German, British, Belgian, Ashkenazi and a little French Flanders (Lille), but his single populations typically rest in South Dutch, and sometimes close to Pylsteen's:


    ,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
    Dewslothdad,0.0111,0.0136,0.0124,0.0073,0.0121,0.0 039,0.0033,0.0016,0.0044,0.0071,-0.003,0.0043,-0.007,-0.0047,0.0087,0.0022,-0.0011,0.0006,-0.0014,0.0028,-0.0003,0.0042,-0.0041,0.0054,0.0018

    He also scores 70+ for 3 of the non-ACD Bavarians and 2 of the ACD Bavarians on Tolan's K36 chart.
    Interesting Dewsloth - as I just checked Tolan's map with the new additions with my kit - and I get over 80 (83) with AED 249 and mid 70s with STR kits 316, 355, and 220. I don't get above 70 with the ACD samples though. Also I get more into the 80s with the Gladiators from York - who off the top of my head both 3drif-16 and 6drif-3 at least have their highest scores on Tolan's map in the Netherland and SW Scotland - both in them in the mid 80s ;-).

    I wanted to also say some calculators come up as my single pop as Dutch (south Dutch I think....) but I also have a lot of recent Gaelic Celtic ancestry :-).

    Cheers!
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Johann Adam Weber/Weaver born 1784 in Pennsylvania. Sergeant, US 17th Inf, War of 1812: R1b-U106-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004... FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3 - one of the "Headless" Roman Gladiator/Soldiers! Father Captain Martin Weber b. 1739 in Hesse(?), Germany, d. 1804 Dauphin, PA.

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget O'Danagher b. 1843 Lorrha/Dorrha, Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Migrant Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4) - Sílastaðir in Eyjafjarðarsýsla, North Iceland is T2b2b.

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    How does one find their PC coordinates?

    My maternal side is Dutch, with half coming from Zuid-Holland and the other half from Groningen. Unfortunately, I'm probably not a useful candidate considering the other half of my ancestry (paternal) is from Britain & Ireland, France and Germany... If I could convince a representative of each side of my maternal family to test perhaps maybe then they could be useful...

    I have one incoming line (though it is distant and quite removed from me on the tree) from Germany that migrated into the Netherlands, they were apparently from Schotmar in Germany (NRW). However all other lines are from rural areas of both Zuid-Holland and Groningen.

    EDIT:

    Bollox79,

    Interesting, I have 50s and 60s with the ACD samples, 50s and high 70s with the non-ACD samples from Bavaria with one 81 with STR_355. I have 80s with Hinxton4, 6DRIF18, 6DRIF21, 6DRIF3, 3DRIF6. Do you have high similarities with the supposedly Gaelic Driffield Terrace individuals considering your more recent Gaelic ancestry?
    Last edited by spruithean; 03-24-2018 at 12:07 AM.

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  16. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huijbregts View Post
    What I learned from this exercise is that populations like Dutch German, British and Belgian are so much overlapping that you can only compare results if they were calculated with exactly the same setup.
    I will have a look at the sample of your father tomorrow. I hope he doesn't have too much Ashkenazi, for that is not among the standard referents.
    In my words a matter of zoom in or zoom out or in other words matter of nuances......still there are differences even into the phenotype like height etc
    No intention to exaggerate, or consider them absolute, still those nuance can lead to genographie.....traces of past migration moves.
    Last edited by Finn; 03-24-2018 at 01:13 PM.

  17. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by spruithean View Post
    How does one find their PC coordinates?
    You need to have an autosomal file from FTDNA, 23AndMe or Ancestry.
    You can send your autosomal file to Generalissimo at [email protected] and pay him $6thru PayPal.

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