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Thread: Iberomaurasians and Proto-Afroasiatic

  1. #341
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    I just found this article that deals with the AA question


    https://www.phil.muni.cz/jazyk/files...ationsCORR.pdf

    quote

    These arguments speak for the Levantine location:

    Distant relationship of Afroasiatic with Kartvelian, Dravidian, Indo-European and other Eurasiatic language families within the framework of the Nostratic hypothesis (Illič-Svityč
    1971-84; Blažek 2002; Dolgopolsky 2008; Bomhard 2008).

    Lexical parallels connecting Afroasiatic with Near Eastern languages which cannot be explained from Semitic:

    Sumerian-Afroasiatic lexical parallels indicating an Afroasiatic substratum in Sumerian (Militarev 1995).

    Elamite-Afroasiatic lexical and grammatical cognates explainable as a common heritage (Blažek 1999).

    North Caucasian-Afroasiatic parallels in cultural lexicon explainable by old neighborhood (Militarev, Starostin 1984).



    Regarding the tree-diagram above, the hypothetical scenario of disintegration of Afroasiatic and following migrations should operate with two asynchronic migrations from the Levantine
    homeland: Cushitic (& Omotic?) separated first c. 12 mill. BP (late Natufian) and spread into the Arabian Peninsula; next Egyptian, Berber and Chadic split from Semitic (the latter
    remaining in the Levant) c. 11-10 mill. BP and they dispersed into the Nile Delta and Valley.



    It will be useful to couple these linguistic observations with the evidence of ancient dna
    Last edited by etrusco; 09-02-2020 at 08:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramses View Post
    What language Mota spoke ? Mota from Ethiopia "............"he lacked any shared genetic relationship with Afro-asiatic speakers like Ancient berbers ..ancient egyptians..ancient Canaanites..
    He only show contribution to Cushitic speakers due to
    A later admixture event.
    I would argue It really depends on which model you use.
    When and Mota genome dropped years ago they noticed shared affinities.
    Shared affinities are still being noticed.

    Not only this, recent studies estimate 35% and 40% of Niger-Kordofanian / Nilo-Saharan ancestry is hypothesized to be a remnant of Back migrating Eurasian or Eurasian like ancestry from 35-70 thousand years ago. Something like this would be ubiquitous across the continent and shared with all your aforementioned groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    I would argue It really depends on which model you use.
    When and Mota genome dropped years ago they noticed shared affinities.
    Shared affinities are still being noticed.

    Not only this, recent studies estimate 35% and 40% of Niger-Kordofanian / Nilo-Saharan ancestry is hypothesized to be a remnant of Back migrating Eurasian or Eurasian like ancestry from 35-70 thousand years ago. Something like this would be ubiquitous across the continent and shared with all your aforementioned groups.
    That particular study isn't really convincing in my humble opinion; they're are essentially describing ancient population structure within Africa but attributing most of it to back migration. The model in the Shum Laka paper is more parsimonious.

    I doubt that Mota spoke Omotic, given his hunter-gatherer profile, but this doesn't mean that other groups who spoke some early variety of Omotic weren't present in the general vicinity. The Shum Laka paper and other studies (e.g. Europe, South Asia, SE Asia) show that hunter-gatherers are able to remain isolated from surrounding agro-pastoralists for thousands of years with limited gene-flow. The Hadza and a few remaining hunter-gatherer groups in SE Ethiopia are good examples of this phenomenon from the present-day; besides being surrounded by Bantu, Nilotic, and Cushitic speakers, they've maintained their genetic integrity for the most part.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the possible early pastoralists from Kenya spoke a language related to Omotic. They have a different genetic profile from later pastoralists, who were clearly South Cushitic speakers, and were clearly in contact with Mota-related populations in the Great Rift Valley.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gihanga.rwanda View Post
    That particular study isn't really convincing in my humble opinion; they're are essentially describing ancient population structure within Africa but attributing most of it to back migration. The model in the Shum Laka paper is more parsimonious.
    Agreed. But i think the results will be the same. Basically the composite Saharan/North African/Sub Saharan nature Africans previous assumed to only carry Sub Saharan Ancestry. IMO its changes the narrative for Sub Saharans in the way that Basal Eurasian changed the narrative for Mediterraneans and ANE change things for Amerindians.

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    When will ancient paleolithic or mesolithic or even neolithic dna from NE Africa and maybe Arabia drop.

    Those are solely needed

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I've noticed that Omotic's AA status is something that comes back a lot on these forums, which I find a bit surprising because it's a fringe view. The staunchest opponents of the inclusion of Omotic have traditionally been (1) supporters of the old classification of Omotic as a branch of Cushitic or (2) supporters of the view according to which every poorly understood East African language should be lumped into Nilo-Saharan. The isolate theory is more of the same quite frankly.

    This is a minority view at best, the truth is that the debate revolves around which languages are really Omotic and their place within the AA language tree. The recent proposals to exclude Aroid are really based on the pronoun system, but even if such a theory were to be accepted (which it probably won't as it isn't exactly convincing) it still leaves us with dozens of Omotic languages and an entire northern branch which only a few diehard mohicans would insist on excluding from AA.

    From a linguistic standpoint, the reasons to classify Omotic as AA far outnumber those which would prompt us to reconsider such a label.
    So, it it well established that Omotic is indeed part of the Afroasiatic language albeit the internal relations between Omotic language still remains up for debate, right? Also, which language family have had the most impact on PAA? I think you stated that it was Proto-Niger-Congo language, no? What about the Hamar tribe of Ethiopai? Is their Afro-Asiatic as well?
    Last edited by TheIncredibleHulk; 09-24-2020 at 11:27 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    I would argue It really depends on which model you use.
    Not only this, recent studies estimate 35% and 40% of Niger-Kordofanian / Nilo-Saharan ancestry is hypothesized to be a remnant of Back migrating Eurasian or Eurasian like ancestry from 35-70 thousand years ago. Something like this would be ubiquitous across the continent and shared with all your aforementioned groups.
    Just to be clear, this Eurasian is post-bottleneck but without Neanderthal admixture right?

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    This is what they say in the study.

    In addition, we find no differences in affinity to Neanderthals or Denisovans between the variants which fall in segments and the whole genome (Fig. 4d). Taken together, this suggests that Eurasian-derived segments of the African genomes are not enriched with Neanderthal material.

    And

    It has previously been suggested that Eurasian back-migration may be responsible for Neanderthal material in Africans [57]; however, we find no evidence for enrichment of Neanderthal-like material in putatively Eurasian-derived genomic segments in Africans, indicating that Neaderthal introgression into Eurasians occurred after the African introgression event we study here, or that further population structure in the Eurasian ancestral population precluded substantial transmission of Neanderthal material into Africa.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thejkhan View Post
    It's pointless arguing so much about a clade's origin without relevant aDNA. Everything else is speculation.

    If I had to take a guess based on modern day distribution, E-M215 originates south of the Sahara, whereas E-M35 originates north of it. The autosomal component pre-E-M35 brought along with them is the deep ancestry in Taforalt, i.e. ANA.
    I thought this was the general thinking among most people. That E is associated with ANA and not Eurasian or SSA populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El-Maestro View Post
    I'm surprised people are still speaking the way they are about African genetics... Wtf is real SSA ancestry?

    @Philjames To answer your question, it should predate relevant Eurasian geneflow, unless you know something about the dispersal of African populations in the last 10,000 years that I don't. But here's some fun facts; we have cultural practices linked to pastoralism ie; herding in Africa dating as early as 11kya. A lot of these practices are reserved in populations seen today in South sudan (ie; Dinka). Ancient DNA of "cattle" in the Levant reveals introgression from African "wild" Taurine. And Most domesticated cattle in Africa are evidently descendant from these very cattle. Furthermore it's speculated that ancient Levantine cattle were bread to, or naturally built up a resistance to African trypanosomiasis hence the need for wild African Auroch related ancestry... No lie, the people in the Levant were so good, they developed Cattle with a resistance to diseases that didn't even exist in the region only for them to enter African three millennia Afterwards. Keep in mind we only have one aDNA sample from Africa, which is a wild Auroch; the Moroccan 'Th7.'

    Long story short. If you want to prove the plausibility that Iran Pastoralists are responsible for everything we don't understand, you have to show Iran pastoralist ancestry in South Sudanese populations and show that this ancestry post dates Pastoralism and predates the split between modern day west Africans and eastern Sudanic populations. I also need an explanation to why there's no Archaeological evidence to support something so major.

    Does this mean that Levantine farmers originated in SSA and that's where Levantine cattle came from? Or that cattle were domesticated in Africa first?

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