Page 1 of 9 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 89

Thread: K1a4: Origins and Descendants

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    607
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-DF49*
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a4a1

    Northern Ireland England Scotland Isle of Man

    K1a4: Origins and Descendants

    I thought I might open up a thread on K1a4 and her deeper subclades. I am particularly interested in K1a4a1, so some of my questions will doubtlessly zero in on this smaller cluster. Donít let that dissuade you from coming at it from other angles, though.

    My first question has to do with K1a4ís origins and entry into Europe. Maciamo, from Eupedia, has argued that there is a clear correlation between K and R1bís expansion into Europe (see here). While not limiting his discussion to K1a4, he places a great deal of focus on this subclade, which is rather helpful for our purposes here.

    He writes:

    Neolithic lineages would probably have a greater diversity (more subclades) because they expanded earlier. However the trimming of the Neolithic/Chalcolithic population would have slowed down their diversification from the Bronze Age. In contrast, Indo-European lineages would have thrived from the Bronze Age onwards, resulting in a sudden expansion of deep subclades. This is exactly what we observe with K1a4. The subclades that remained behind in Anatolia and the Caucasus have become K1a4f. In Ukraine, the Balkans and Germany we see the appearance of K1a4a. K1a4a1 seems to have developed in Germany, probably around the same time as the branching of R1b-L11 into P312 and U106.
    What do you think? Is this a solid working model for K1a4ís entry into European. Did it arrive with Indo-European speaking R1b men?

  2. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    607
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-DF49*
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a4a1

    Northern Ireland England Scotland Isle of Man
    Another question, this time focusing in on subclade K1a4a1.

    Speaking of K1a4a1, the Genographic Project tells us that, “Today, this line is most common in Luxembourg (9 percent), Croatia (4 percent), Denmark (3 percent), Spain (2 to 3 percent), Sweden (2 percent), and the British Isles (2 percent).”

    So what's going on with Luxembourg? Why do we have such a high percentage of K1a4a1 in this tiny piece of land? It seems to me that this could reflect a South German origin for the subclade along the lines of Maciamo's model above, but I don't honestly know. I'd love to hear some thoughts.

  3. #3
    From these samples of the Ian Logan site we can see that K1a4 is completely European:
    K1a4 11485
    1. AY495261(European) Coble K1a4 07-JAN-2008
    A73G A263G 315.1C C497T 523.1C 523.2A 523.3C 523.4A A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G A4769G C7028T A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G T11485C G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16224C T16311C T16519C
    2. AY495263(European) Coble K1a4 07-JAN-2008
    A73G A263G 315.1C C497T 523.1C 523.2A 523.3C 523.4A A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G A4769G C7028T A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G T11485C G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16224C T16311C T16519C
    4. EU130551(Italy) FTDNA K1a4 12-SEP-2007
    A73G A263G 315.1C C497T 524.1C 524.2A A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G A4769G C7028T A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G T11485C G11719A A12308G A12358G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G A16051G T16224C T16311C T16519C
    5. EU564851 FTDNA K1a4 25-MAR-2008
    A73G G207A A263G 309.1C 315.1C C497T 524.1C 524.2A A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G G3010A A3480G C4137T A4769G G5237A C7028T A8531G A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G T11485C G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G G15930A T16224C T16311C T16519C
    6. FJ348212 Irene K1a429-NOV-2008
    A73G T152C A263G 315.1C C497T 523.1C 523.2A 523.3C 523.4A A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G T4313C A4769G C7028T A8860G G9055A G9064A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G T11485C G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16224C T16311C T16519C
    So are completely European all the subclades, with only K1a4b1, K1a4c with presence out of Europe We don't understand why K1a4f
    K1a4f A7118G T16093C
    59. GU722601 FTDNA K1a4f 22-FEB-2010
    A73G A263G T279C 315.1C C411A C497T 523.1C 523.2A 523.3C 523.4A A750G T1189C A1438G A1811G A2706G A3480G A4769G C7028T A7118G A8860G G9055A T9698C A10398G A10550G T11299C A11467G T11485C G11719A A12308G G12372A C14167T C14766T T14798C A15326G T16093C T16224C T16311C T16519C
    should demonstrate that the origin was in Middle East and above all demonstrate the link with Y haplogroup R1b.
    I spoke in this section of mtDNA K1a17 and the pretension of Eupedia it is of Middle Eastern origin. From K1a there are many subclades, from 1 to 27 so far, and they are overwhelmingly European.
    I think that Maciamo has no credibility by a scientific point of view in all what he says.

  4. #4
    mtDNA hg. K1a4 is important also to deepen a discourse I have elsewhere hinted: the use of Behar2012b of the FTDNA clones. If we look at the 13 samples given for the K1a4 haplogroup, we can see that the FTDNA samples, once used, should have been deleted, so it would have appeared that those clones were sequenced again in Israel's labs. But not always it has happened:
    1) MC947/JQ702505 is the same of the MC16484/FTDNA/EU139551
    2) MC1353/JQ702911 is the same of the MC16851/FTDNA/EU564851
    3) MC4098/JQ705656 is (probably) the same of the MC16527/FTDNA/EU219921, because they differ in the mutations:
    C150T C264T C6518TT C10961T A13681G A15613G T16093C with "topologically missing" A11914G the second

    C264T C6518TT C10961T A13681G A15613G T16093C C16189Y with "topologically missing" A11914G and C16189T the first.
    Was this clone actually sequenced again or has been done a great confusion in reporting the results?


    Haplogroup K1a4 has 13 samples
    Sample Id: MC947 NCBI Id: JQ702505 Unresolved Options: Verified Partial Descendants:
    Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] A12358G; A16051G;
    Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] Country: Italy Geography: Ancestry:
    Reference: Behar 2012b Contact:
    Sample Id: MC1072 Unresolved Options: Verified Partial Descendants:
    Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] 315.1C T372C 522.1A 522.2C 522.3A 522.4C G10586A T12957C T16093Y
    Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] C152T
    Country: United States Geography: PA Ancestry: Reference: Contact:
    Sample Id: MC1353 NCBI Id: JQ702911 Unresolved Options: Verified Partial Descendants:
    Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] G207A; G3010A; C4137T; G5237A; A8531G; G15930A;
    Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] Country: Geography: Ancestry: Reference: Behar 2012b Contact:
    Sample Id: MC1738 NCBI Id: JQ703296 Unresolved Options: Verified Partial Descendants:
    Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] T3290C; A6437G;
    Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.]Country: Geography: Ancestry: Reference: Behar 2012b Contact:
    Sample Id: MC1803 NCBI Id: JQ703361 Unresolved Options: Verified Partial Descendants:
    Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] G5237A; A8531G; A8642G; A11167G; G15497A;
    Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] Country: Geography: Ancestry: Reference: Behar 2012b Contact:
    Sample Id: MC3604 NCBI Id: JQ705162 Unresolved Options: Verified Partial Descendants:
    Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] A7358G; A8350c; A11566G; T16093Y;
    Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] Country: Geography: Ancestry: Reference: Behar 2012b Contact:
    Sample Id: MC4098 NCBI Id: JQ705656 Unresolved Options: K1a4; Verified Partial Descendants:
    Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] C264T; C6518T; C10961T; A13681G; A15613G; T16093C; C16189Y;
    Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] A11914G(L1'2'3'4'5'6); C16189T(L2'3'4'6);
    Country: Switzerland Geography: Ancestry: Reference: Behar 2012b Contact:
    Sample Id: MC14636 NCBI Id: AY495261 Unresolved Options: Verified Partial Descendants:
    Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.]
    Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] Country: Geography: Ancestry: Reference: Coble 2004 Contact:
    Sample Id: MC14638 NCBI Id: AY495263 Unresolved Options: Verified Partial Descendants:
    Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.]
    Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] Country: Geography Ancestry: Reference: Coble 2004 Contact:
    Sample Id: MC16484 NCBI Id: EU130551 Unresolved Options: Verified Partial Descendants:
    Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] A12358G; A16051G;
    Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] Country: Geography: Ancestry: Reference: FamilyTreeDNA Contact:
    Sample Id: MC16527 NCBI Id: EU219921 Unresolved Options: K1a4; Verified Partial Descendants:
    Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] C150T; C264T; C6518T; C10961T; A13681G; A15613G; T16093C;
    Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] A11914G(L1'2'3'4'5'6);
    Country: Geography: Ancestry: Reference: FamilyTreeDNA Contact:
    Sample Id: MC16851 NCBI Id: EU564851 Unresolved Options: Verified Partial Descendants:
    Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] G207A; G3010A; C4137T; G5237A; A8531G; G15930A;
    Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] Country: Geography: Ancestry: Reference: FamilyTreeDNA Contact:
    Sample Id: MC17438 NCBI Id: FJ348212 Unresolved Options: Verified Partial Descendants:
    Private Mutations: [A Personal or Private Mutation is a marker (SNP) you have that is not part of the defining markers list for this haplogroup.] T4313C; G9064A;
    Topologically Missing: [A 'Missing' Mutation is a marker (SNP) that is part of the defining list of markers for this haplogroup that you do not have.] C152T(L2'3'4'5'6);
    Country: Geography: Ancestry: Reference: Pichler 2008 Contact:

  5. #5
    Registered Users
    Posts
    607
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-DF49*
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a4a1

    Northern Ireland England Scotland Isle of Man
    Hi Rathna,

    Thanks for your reply. After reading it, I combed through Jean Manco's Ancient DNA database, isolating Haplotype K and its subclades to get a better picture of where K is found down though the millennia. I've created a new thread to show what we have so far: K in Ancient DNA. Hopefully this will help fill in some of the blank spaces.

    While it takes us beyond K1a4, I think it does suggest that you are right in placing it in Europe earlier than Maciamo does. K1a, at least, seems to appear in both northern Germany and Spain sometime around 5000 BC with the LBK and Epicardial cultures, respectively. I'm not sure I'm much clearer yet, as to how it got to these locations, but it's something to work from.

  6. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    607
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-DF49*
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a4a1

    Northern Ireland England Scotland Isle of Man
    I've asked Maciamo to respond to the question posed immediately above. I look forward to hearing his thoughts on the matter...

  7. #7
    Hi David, I think we all are sincerely searching for the truth. Behar 2012b gives to K1a an age of 18433.3 +/- 1732.8 years, i.e. to say that a sample of K1a has been found 5000 years BC has no meaning. And where has it been before?
    My K1a1b1e is more recent and I think having demonstrated that it probably was born in Italy: I have found 1 sample also amongst the 105 Tuscans of the 1KGP. A percentage of about 1% is unthinkable for a so rare haplotype. British K1a1b1e certainly derives from the Italian one, having the mutation 477C I haven't. A few days ago a sample at a GD of 1 from mine (i.e. probably without my mutation in T11204C) has appeared on FTDNA. I wrote to the owner, who has a Spanish surname. The origin of her maternal line could shed an important light on the origin of this halogroup. Unfortunately she didn't reply and probably won't do it in the future.
    Last edited by Rathna; 01-25-2014 at 10:37 PM.

  8. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    607
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-DF49*
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a4a1

    Northern Ireland England Scotland Isle of Man
    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    to say that a sample of K1a has been found 5000 years BC has no meaning. And where has it been before?
    I agree that if it was presented as a bare fact the 5000 BC sample date would have no meaning. When it is presented within the context of no positives in Europe from either the mesolithic (probably) or the paleolithic, however, it does indeed lead to the question, "Where has it been before?" As the earliest concrete dates for K appear in Syria (6800-6000 BC), it looks like it was in the Levant before it was in Europe. Of course new discoveries in ancient DNA may reveal a completely different picture; the may show that you are right. Until then, though, it looks to me like it came into Europe from the Near East sometime in the neolithic.

    Please don't take this as an outright rejection of your model. I don't have any personal bias here, and I'm not invested in any particular model. I look forward to seeing where the evidence leads us, though.

  9. #9
    Yes, this is what pretty all think. What disturbed me is the link of K1a4 with Middle East and the hg. R1b that Maciamo did, and I think having demonstrated wrong. About the origin of K it is important also the origin of U, and above all U8b'K from which K was born, and its presence in Italy is huge, also on 23andMe and some samples I had from the owners.
    Another method for demonstrating something is to see where the subclades are, and, as I have said above, overwhelmingly they are in Europe. This has been demonstrated also from the recent paper of Costa et alii about the Ashkenazi K. Personally I leave a possibility only to the Caucasus, where probably was born K3.
    About Y R1b I have written a lot: you can see not only "Rathna's reassessment of genetic materials", not created by me but by the administrators, but the more recent "R1b phylogeny", where we are collecting data about the last tests, many in progress.

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to Rathna For This Useful Post:

     David Mc (01-25-2014)

  11. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    607
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-DF49*
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a4a1

    Northern Ireland England Scotland Isle of Man
    Maciamo has amended his article to place the European expansion of K/Ka1 etc. in the neolithic. He still argues that there is an important correlation between the frequencies of R1b and K, but he links this with R1b's replacement of most neolithic male lines and the possible addition of other K mitochondrial lines coming in with R1b. Either way, it's nice to see more information coming in about this particular haplogroup.

    I would still love to know what's going on with Luxembourg, though...

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to David Mc For This Useful Post:

     Rathna (01-29-2014)

Page 1 of 9 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. R1 descendants
    By aleene in forum R/R0
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 07-22-2018, 12:53 PM
  2. THE descendants of Alans, R1a
    By Bulat in forum R1a General
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 02-25-2018, 06:51 PM
  3. SHG descendants?
    By Tomenable in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 07-25-2016, 04:27 PM
  4. R1b Big Picture Descendants Tree
    By TigerMW in forum R1b General
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 02-23-2016, 05:36 AM
  5. How many descendants after 150 years?
    By Hando in forum Genealogy
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 09-21-2015, 01:34 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •