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Thread: K1a4: Origins and Descendants

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    vettor, who knows me knows that I use above all the mt and the Y for my researches. I use the autosome only for a close relatedness: by it I contributed to find the father of an adopted American and some interesting input I had also for my ancestry, but I have used above all 23andMe, I know a little Family Finder, thus MyOrigins. Anyway the autosome cannot say anything about the mt or the Y, which are too far for having lost some trace. It seems to me that, also by MyOrigins criteria, your wife is overwhelmingly Italian, and above all from old Italian origin (81% North Mediterranean Basin).
    To investigate the 31,5 Cm with a person from the Schwarzwalden Forest: it is likely that he/she has some Italian recent input. But this is only my hypothesis.
    thanks

    maybe we need to investigate the adriatic-refugium ..........something I have been reading since the 2012 conference

    http://bonesandskulls.co.uk/2012/12/...atic-refugium/

    http://grottadifumane.eu/publication...aly/wppa_open/


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

  2. #22
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    Fernández et al. found K among early farmers in Syria (link).

    It appears Fernández did not atttempt a full sequence so we might not be able to determine the specific K subclades. But this finding is consistent with the possibility that K arrived in Europe with neolithic farmers from the Near East. And this further undercuts the conclusion of Costa et al. which I've found to be highly speculative and improbable.

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by GailT View Post
    Fernández et al. found K among early farmers in Syria (link).

    It appears Fernández did not atttempt a full sequence so we might not be able to determine the specific K subclades. But this finding is consistent with the possibility that K arrived in Europe with neolithic farmers from the Near East. And this further undercuts the conclusion of Costa et al. which I've found to be highly speculative and improbable.
    The K info relates to other K lines, not K1a4
    Only other K I know about in Syria/levant is K1b group


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  5. #24
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    How to proceed ...............most of you people here are far more clever than me , so I would like your opinion on the following.

    My wife is K1a4

    On ftdna, she has 4 people who match here on Chr#12 in exactly the same spot . ( so all 5 are together)
    All are from different countries...Austria, Germany, Italy and England. ( not including my wife)
    3 of the 4 have big ancestry trees. ( the Austrian is missing )
    3 of the 4 match each other on the ftdna matrix. ( the German is not part of this )
    All 4 are K mtdna ...although some are different to K1a4


    Edit.....another arrived





    my question.......how do I proceed?..............sort via names in the trees ( seems like over a hundred to 2 hundred combined)
    Last edited by vettor; 08-08-2014 at 11:00 PM.


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

  6. #25
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    All not being in mtDNA haplogroup K1a4 only means that they are not all related to the same maternal ancestor. Specifically, I mean the one depicted on the rightmost side of their respective family trees. They have a common (autosomal) ancestor that could be anywhere else in their family trees. I don't see how searching by surname would necessarily help. If your wife has a parent that could take an aDNA test, have him or her tested. That would allow you to isolate which side of your wife's tree the ancestor is on, and narrow down the genealogy. Of course if you could convince your wife's matches to do the same, the genealogy would become much simplier.
    dp :-)
    Grace and good eure and long prosperitee. [Lydg. Mum. Goldsmiths]

    ysearch/mitosearch id: atr94 GENBANK/ENA mtDNA id: KF703542 member ISOGG

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     vettor (01-31-2015)

  8. #26
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    I thought I would try jameslick program ( as I have not used it in 2014 with the new mtdna tree included)

    for me and my mtdna it is correct

    for my wife designated K1a4 it is correct ( ftdna was also correct )

    my son, who is K1a ( in 23andme - v4) is tested as
    k1a29

    with 16304G as extra and 16093T as different from k1a4 ................can this be correct , can he be different from his mother?
    note, in getmatch he and mother are an exact copy


    I did find some info on K1a4 here
    http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rc...,d.cWc&cad=rja
    Last edited by vettor; 01-31-2015 at 06:47 AM.


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

  9. #27
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    I may be not be correct for this instance, but 16093 is notorious for being hard to read. I have seen many Y's in Fasta's there, so it's either a C or a T for the derived allele but they didn't know which. See if that may be the case.
    As far a K1a29, I'm not up with the newer haplogroup designations. When I ran K's from GEDBANK in 2012-2013 the highest I found were K1a27s, viz.:
    K1a27 JN415475 France ?Lebanese Achilli (2012)
    K1a27 JQ705460 Behar (2012).

    I checked at Phylotree. You need to check for a C at 11485, a C at 8167, for both of them.
    Have both had full mtGenome scans?
    Partial ones, like 23andme does can have errors due to lack of testing in defining positions.
    I assume your wife was tested at 11485 for a C which got her into K1a4.
    Only if your son was tested at both positions and came 11485T then they could use 8167C to place him in K1a29. If this is the case then you need to make sure your wife was tested at both.
    Hope this helps,
    dp :-)
    Last edited by dp; 01-31-2015 at 04:50 PM.
    Grace and good eure and long prosperitee. [Lydg. Mum. Goldsmiths]

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  11. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Powell View Post
    I may be not be correct for this instance, but 16093 is notorious for being hard to read. I have seen many Y's in Fasta's there, so it's either a C or a T for the derived allele but they didn't know which. See if that may be the case.
    As far a K1a29, I'm not up with the newer haplogroup designations. When I ran K's from GEDBANK in 2012-2013 the highest I found were K1a27s, viz.:
    K1a27 JN415475 France ?Lebanese Achilli (2012)
    K1a27 JQ705460 Behar (2012).

    I checked at Phylotree. You need to check for a C at 11485, a C at 8167, for both of them.
    Have both had full mtGenome scans?
    Partial ones, like 23andme does can have errors due to lack of testing in defining positions.
    I assume your wife was tested at 11485 for a C which got her into K1a4.
    Only if your son was tested at both positions and came 11485T then they could use 8167C to place him in K1a29. If this is the case then you need to make sure your wife was tested at both.
    Hope this helps,
    dp :-)
    Thanks ...wife is same from ftdna and Jlick program
    My wife did the FULL mtdna tests via ftdna

    1) K1a4

    Defining Markers for haplogroup K1a4:
    HVR2: 73G 263G 497T
    CR: 750G 1189C 1438G 1811G 2706G 3480G 4769G 7028T 8860G 9055A 9698C 10398G 10550G 11299C 11467G 11485C 11719A 12308G 12372A 14167T 14766T 14798C 15326G
    HVR1: (16093C) 16224C 16311C

    Marker path from rCRS to haplogroup K1a4 (plus extra markers):
    H2a2a1(rCRS) ⇨ 263G ⇨ H2a2a ⇨ 8860G 15326G ⇨ H2a2 ⇨ 750G ⇨ H2a ⇨ 4769G ⇨ H2 ⇨ 1438G ⇨ H ⇨ 2706G 7028T ⇨ HV ⇨ 14766T ⇨ R0 ⇨ 73G 11719A ⇨ R ⇨ 11467G 12308G 12372A ⇨ U ⇨ 1811G ⇨ U2'3'4'7'8'9 ⇨ 9698C ⇨ U8 ⇨ 3480G ⇨ U8b'c ⇨ 9055A 14167T ⇨ U8b ⇨ 10550G 11299C 14798C 16224C 16311C ⇨ K ⇨ 1189C 10398G ⇨ K1 ⇨ 497T (16093C) ⇨ K1a ⇨ 11485C ⇨ K1a4 ⇨ (315.1C) 524.1A 524.2C 3970T 12273G 16304C (16519C)

    Good Match! Your results also had extra markers for this haplogroup:
    Matches(28): 73G 263G 497T 750G 1189C 1438G 1811G 2706G 3480G 4769G 7028T 8860G 9055A 9698C 10398G 10550G 11299C 11467G 11485C 11719A 12308G 12372A 14167T 14766T 14798C 15326G 16224C 16311C
    Mismatches(0): (16093T)
    Extras(5): (315.1C) 524.1A 524.2C 3970T 12273G 16304C (16519C)


    my son did the [email protected] V4 test

    1) K1a29

    Defining Markers for haplogroup K1a29:
    HVR2: 73G 263G 497T
    CR: 750G 1189C 1438G 1811G 2706G 3480G 4769G 7028T 8167C 8860G 9055A 9698C 10398G 10550G 11299C 11467G 11719A 12308G 12372A 14167T 14766T 14798C 15326G
    HVR1: (16093C) 16224C 16311C

    Marker path from rCRS to haplogroup K1a29 (plus extra markers):
    H2a2a1(rCRS) ⇨ 263G ⇨ H2a2a ⇨ 8860G 15326G ⇨ H2a2 ⇨ 750G ⇨ H2a ⇨ 4769G ⇨ H2 ⇨ 1438G ⇨ H ⇨ 2706G 7028T ⇨ HV ⇨ 14766T ⇨ R0 ⇨ 73G 11719A ⇨ R ⇨ 11467G 12308G 12372A ⇨ U ⇨ 1811G ⇨ U2'3'4'7'8'9 ⇨ 9698C ⇨ U8 ⇨ 3480G ⇨ U8b'c ⇨ 9055A 14167T ⇨ U8b ⇨ 10550G 11299C 14798C 16224C 16311C ⇨ K ⇨ 1189C 10398G ⇨ K1 ⇨ 497T (16093C) ⇨ K1a ⇨ 8167C ⇨ K1a29 ⇨ 16304G (16519C)

    Imperfect Match. Your results contained differences with this haplogroup:
    Matches(26): 73G 263G 497T 750G 1189C 1438G 1811G 2706G 3480G 4769G 7028T 8860G 9055A 9698C 10398G 10550G 11299C 11467G 11719A 12308G 12372A 14167T 14766T 14798C 16224C 16311C
    Mismatches(0): (16093T)
    Extras(1): 16304G (16519C)
    Untested(2): 8167 15326

    Maybe the V4 from [email protected] is the issue as my batches for myself for [email protected] v3 and ftdna both work perfectly..................then again my sample from genbank is used to define the marker on the new tree
    Last edited by vettor; 01-31-2015 at 06:44 PM.


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

  12. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Thanks ...wife is same from ftdna and Jlick program
    My wife did the FULL mtdna tests via ftdna

    1) K1a4

    Defining Markers for haplogroup K1a4:
    HVR2: 73G 263G 497T
    CR: 750G 1189C 1438G 1811G 2706G 3480G 4769G 7028T 8860G 9055A 9698C 10398G 10550G 11299C 11467G 11485C 11719A 12308G 12372A 14167T 14766T 14798C 15326G
    HVR1: (16093C) 16224C 16311C

    Marker path from rCRS to haplogroup K1a4 (plus extra markers):
    H2a2a1(rCRS) ⇨ 263G ⇨ H2a2a ⇨ 8860G 15326G ⇨ H2a2 ⇨ 750G ⇨ H2a ⇨ 4769G ⇨ H2 ⇨ 1438G ⇨ H ⇨ 2706G 7028T ⇨ HV ⇨ 14766T ⇨ R0 ⇨ 73G 11719A ⇨ R ⇨ 11467G 12308G 12372A ⇨ U ⇨ 1811G ⇨ U2'3'4'7'8'9 ⇨ 9698C ⇨ U8 ⇨ 3480G ⇨ U8b'c ⇨ 9055A 14167T ⇨ U8b ⇨ 10550G 11299C 14798C 16224C 16311C ⇨ K ⇨ 1189C 10398G ⇨ K1 ⇨ 497T (16093C) ⇨ K1a ⇨ 11485C ⇨ K1a4 ⇨ (315.1C) 524.1A 524.2C 3970T 12273G 16304C (16519C)

    Good Match! Your results also had extra markers for this haplogroup:
    Matches(28): 73G 263G 497T 750G 1189C 1438G 1811G 2706G 3480G 4769G 7028T 8860G 9055A 9698C 10398G 10550G 11299C 11467G 11485C 11719A 12308G 12372A 14167T 14766T 14798C 15326G 16224C 16311C
    Mismatches(0): (16093T)
    Extras(5): (315.1C) 524.1A 524.2C 3970T 12273G 16304C (16519C)


    my son did the [email protected] V4 test

    1) K1a29

    Defining Markers for haplogroup K1a29:
    HVR2: 73G 263G 497T
    CR: 750G 1189C 1438G 1811G 2706G 3480G 4769G 7028T 8167C 8860G 9055A 9698C 10398G 10550G 11299C 11467G 11719A 12308G 12372A 14167T 14766T 14798C 15326G
    HVR1: (16093C) 16224C 16311C

    Marker path from rCRS to haplogroup K1a29 (plus extra markers):
    H2a2a1(rCRS) ⇨ 263G ⇨ H2a2a ⇨ 8860G 15326G ⇨ H2a2 ⇨ 750G ⇨ H2a ⇨ 4769G ⇨ H2 ⇨ 1438G ⇨ H ⇨ 2706G 7028T ⇨ HV ⇨ 14766T ⇨ R0 ⇨ 73G 11719A ⇨ R ⇨ 11467G 12308G 12372A ⇨ U ⇨ 1811G ⇨ U2'3'4'7'8'9 ⇨ 9698C ⇨ U8 ⇨ 3480G ⇨ U8b'c ⇨ 9055A 14167T ⇨ U8b ⇨ 10550G 11299C 14798C 16224C 16311C ⇨ K ⇨ 1189C 10398G ⇨ K1 ⇨ 497T (16093C) ⇨ K1a ⇨ 8167C ⇨ K1a29 ⇨ 16304G (16519C)

    Imperfect Match. Your results contained differences with this haplogroup:
    Matches(26): 73G 263G 497T 750G 1189C 1438G 1811G 2706G 3480G 4769G 7028T 8860G 9055A 9698C 10398G 10550G 11299C 11467G 11719A 12308G 12372A 14167T 14766T 14798C 16224C 16311C
    Mismatches(0): (16093T)
    Extras(1): 16304G (16519C)
    Untested(2): 8167 15326

    Maybe the V4 from [email protected] is the issue as my batches for myself for [email protected] v3 and ftdna both work perfectly..................then again my sample from genbank is used to define the marker on the new tree
    They assigned him to something they didn't test for. I think they saw the hypervariable 16304G and jumped the gun on his assignment. Look at the raw data to make sure they tested T11485C.
    Have a good weekend.
    dp :-)
    Last edited by dp; 01-31-2015 at 06:56 PM.
    Grace and good eure and long prosperitee. [Lydg. Mum. Goldsmiths]

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  13. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Mc View Post
    I thought I might open up a thread on K1a4 and her deeper subclades. I am particularly interested in K1a4a1, so some of my questions will doubtlessly zero in on this smaller cluster. Don’t let that dissuade you from coming at it from other angles, though.

    My first question has to do with K1a4’s origins and entry into Europe. Maciamo, from Eupedia, has argued that there is a clear correlation between K and R1b’s expansion into Europe (see here). While not limiting his discussion to K1a4, he places a great deal of focus on this subclade, which is rather helpful for our purposes here.

    He writes:



    What do you think? Is this a solid working model for K1a4’s entry into European. Did it arrive with Indo-European speaking R1b men?
    I see that he suggests k1a4a1 originated in Germany. OTOH, the latest on Geno 2.0 suggests k1a4a1 originated most likely in Southeastern Europe or Anatolia about 9,000 years ago.
    Last edited by wombatofthenorth; 03-29-2015 at 11:48 PM.

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