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Thread: The origin of the mysterious R1a2a YP4141>YP5018.

  1. #1
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    Lightbulb The origin of the mysterious R1a2a YP4141>YP5018.

    I recently took a Y-111 DNA test with FTDNA in order to find out which haplogroup that I belonged to as I have a strong interest in history and knowledge of my ancestors. My paternal side is ethnic Zaza from Dersim, they are an Indo-Iranian language speaking people from South-Eastern Anatolia, similar to Kurds and Iranic people from the Caspian Sea. I knew that I was R1a because my brother had already done a test with 23andme but it wasn't a very deep test, so I decided to do a more in-depth y-DNA test with FTDNA. Initially, I assumed that our subclade would have been R-Z93 like the majority of Indo-Iranian speakers who are R1a. However, to my great surprise, when my results arrived I discovered that I was a part of a rare and somewhat mysterious subclade of R1a called YP5018.

    The main cluster of the subclade that I belong covers South-Eastern Anatolia, Northern Mesopotamia, and South Caucuses region with some outliers in Yemen, Qatar, and UAE. The people who have tested positive for YP5018 have been predominantly other Zaza people from the Dersim region, followed by Kurds from Iraq, Armenians, Georgians, Chechnians, Chaldeans, and Arabs from Yemen, Qatar, UAE. The Yemeni samples that I mentioned cluster closest to Zaza samples from Dersim. Our theory is that around 300-600 years ago one of my great, great, grand... uncles migrated to Yemen and settled there mixing with the local population, probably during the Ayyubid or Ottoman era. This explains why the Yemeni YP5018s are located so far from the main cluster in Northern Mesopotamia, South-Eastern Anatolia, and Caucuses region and match closest to people from Dersim rather than Arab samples in Iraq, Qatar, and UAE.

    R1a2b haplogroup map terrain.JPG

    It has been proposed that haplogroup R1a (R-M420) originated somewhere in Southern Siberia at around 18,000 years ago and that YP4141 (our parent subclade) broke away from it some 13,000 years ago and formed a separate branch from the main R-M417 which is associated with the expansion of Indo-European languages during the Bronze Age, especially in Eastern Europe.

    We also have a sister subclade, namely YP4131, which broke away from our parent subclade YP4141 and today forms its main cluster on the other side of Europe in Ireland, Scottland, and England of all places. That group also has a number of outliers in Southern Italy, Kuwait, Iran, and India.

    r1a-clades-july-2016-lubicz-lapinski - circle.jpg

    There are a few theories about the origins of our subclade but due to a lack of archeological evidence and rarity of our group, it's difficult to prove one theory over the other. One theory is that YP4141 is an archaic branch that originated locally in the Zagros mountains of Iran and which migrated into Europe during the Neolithic period via the Caucuses. Another theory is that YP4141 originated in Europe and then arrived in the Near East during the Indo-European expansion of the Bronze Age but became extinct in Europe hence a lack of samples. The third theory is that YP4141 originated in Southern Siberia and our particular subclade YP5018 migrated to the Near East while YP4131 migrated to the British Isles.

    I hope that one day scientists stop ignoring our weird and enigmatic group and put some effort into trying to figure out how we fit into the R1a puzzle. Because at the moment it seems like it's anyone's guess.

    What are your theories? I would love to hear everyone's opinions on this frustratingly mysterious subclade of R1a.

    Thanks!

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  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnatolian View Post
    I recently took a Y-111 DNA test with FTDNA in order to find out which haplogroup that I belonged to as I have a strong interest in history and knowledge of my ancestors. My paternal side is ethnic Zaza from Dersim, they are an Indo-Iranian language speaking people from South-Eastern Anatolia, similar to Kurds and Iranic people from the Caspian Sea. I knew that I was R1a because my brother had already done a test with 23andme but it wasn't a very deep test, so I decided to do a more in-depth y-DNA test with FTDNA. Initially, I assumed that our subclade would have been R-Z93 like the majority of Indo-Iranian speakers who are R1a. However, to my great surprise, when my results arrived I discovered that I was a part of a rare and somewhat mysterious subclade of R1a called YP5018.

    The main cluster of the subclade that I belong covers South-Eastern Anatolia, Northern Mesopotamia, and South Caucuses region with some outliers in Yemen, Qatar, and UAE. The people who have tested positive for YP5018 have been predominantly other Zaza people from the Dersim region, followed by Kurds from Iraq, Armenians, Georgians, Chechnians, Chaldeans, and Arabs from Yemen, Qatar, UAE. The Yemeni samples that I mentioned cluster closest to Zaza samples from Dersim. Our theory is that around 300-600 years ago one of my great, great, grand... uncles migrated to Yemen and settled there mixing with the local population, probably during the Ayyubid or Ottoman era. This explains why the Yemeni YP5018s are located so far from the main cluster in Northern Mesopotamia, South-Eastern Anatolia, and Caucuses region and match closest to people from Dersim rather than Arab samples in Iraq, Qatar, and UAE.

    R1a2b haplogroup map terrain.JPG

    It has been proposed that haplogroup R1a (R-M420) originated somewhere in Southern Siberia at around 18,000 years ago and that YP4141 (our parent subclade) broke away from it some 13,000 years ago and formed a separate branch from the main R-M417 which is associated with the expansion of Indo-European languages during the Bronze Age, especially in Eastern Europe.

    We also have a sister subclade, namely YP4131, which broke away from our parent subclade YP4141 and today forms its main cluster on the other side of Europe in Ireland, Scottland, and England of all places. That group also has a number of outliers in Southern Italy, Kuwait, Iran, and India.

    r1a-clades-july-2016-lubicz-lapinski - circle.jpg

    There are a few theories about the origins of our subclade but due to a lack of archeological evidence and rarity of our group, it's difficult to prove one theory over the other. One theory is that YP4141 is an archaic branch that originated locally in the Zagros mountains of Iran and which migrated into Europe during the Neolithic period via the Caucuses. Another theory is that YP4141 originated in Europe and then arrived in the Near East during the Indo-European expansion of the Bronze Age but became extinct in Europe hence a lack of samples. The third theory is that YP4141 originated in Southern Siberia and our particular subclade YP5018 migrated to the Near East while YP4131 migrated to the British Isles.

    I hope that one day scientists stop ignoring our weird and enigmatic group and put some effort into trying to figure out how we fit into the R1a puzzle. Because at the moment it seems like it's anyone's guess.

    What are your theories? I would love to hear everyone's opinions on this frustratingly mysterious subclade of R1a.

    Thanks!
    I have also been curious about this cluster over the years but haven't looked into it very deeply. What's the age of the split between the western European branch and yours? That should be a supporting factor if the branch in western Europe is a recent immigrant to the area. I just took a look at Yfull for YP4131, and it appears that they are somewhat recent immigrants to the area, descended from YP4132 who also seems West Asian. I'd guess that the Europeans descend from someone absorbed in the Roman Empire and a surviving branch moved north.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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    According to Y-Full, R1a-YP5018 and R1a-YP4132 formed 12,000 years ago, and R1a-YP4131 in the British Isles formed 4,300 years ago but I'm sceptical about how accurate those figure are.

    What I do know is that there are meant to be two samples of R1a-YP4141 in the archeological record. One sample form Poland in the medieval period and another Bronze Age Eastern "Kazakh" sample from Aktogay (1618-1513 calBCE) which was R1a-YP4141 and positive to some SNPs on the YP4132 level.

    If R1a-YP4141 was in Bronze Age Khazakistan, it must have been in Eastern Europe as well. I'm thinking that the the other R1a-YP4132 samples in Iran, India and Kuwait arrived there during the Bronze Age from Eastern Europe via Central Asia with R1a-Z93. Unfortunately that doesn't explain how or when my subclade R1a-YP5018 arrived there. Unless it also arrived at the same time as it's sister clade from Eastern Europe via Central Asia. And as far as I know, unlike R1a-YP4132, we don't have any examples for R1a-YP5018 in the archeological record.
    Last edited by TheAnatolian; 02-08-2020 at 03:10 AM.

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    Hello Anatolian

    I must ask you how unique YP5018 is on 17 markers. I found one haplotype who could be YP5018, but I'm not shore if it can be mistaken for some other haplogroup.

    393-390-19-391-385ab-439-389I-391-389II-458-437-448-GATA H4-456-438-635
    13-23-15-11-12/12-12-13-13-30-17-15-19-11-15-11-23

    It's from the paper "Population genetics for 17 Y-STR loci in Hui ethnic minority from Liaoning Province, Northeast China"

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ortheast_China

    He is in line 209 (HT204) in Table S1

    It looks like YP5018 to me, but I don't know much about value diversity out of J1 haplogroup. If I make mistake, sorry

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  9. #5
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    Hello Lavantino,

    That is very, very interesting.
    I'll be honest, I'm not an expert by any means but the first 8 markers are almost identical. After that it starts looking very different.. You should really show this to an expert and see what they have to say about it.

    Hui sample
    13-23-15-11-12/12-12-13-13-30-17-15-19-11-15-11-23

    R1a-YP5018 sample
    13-23-15-11-12/12-12-12-12-13-13-30-16-9/9-11-12-26

  10. #6
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    Is there anyone on here who can assist me to figure out how these samples relate to one another? I.e if there is one Basal sample that split off first. Is it even possible with the information below?
    Just by looking at the numbers, I can roughly see that the two Turkey samples and the Yemeni sample are the closest to each other and form their own cluster. The Chechen 1 sample is the most distant from all other samples and Qatar seems to be somewhat evenly distant to all the others and Georgia looks like it might have some type of relationship with Qatar, but I am not sure how.

    If there are any mathematical geniuses on here, I would greatly appreciate your assistance in shedding some light on how this subclade moved around and evolved. Thanks!

    Turkey 1 13 23 15 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 31 17 9-9 11 12 26 15 19 29 12-12-13-17 11 10 19-23 15 16 18 17 34-38 12 11 9 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 11 11 12 22-22 14 10 12 12 14 8 12 23 21 14 12 12 13 11 11 12 12 35 15 9 14 12 27 24 19 12 12 12 13 10 9 12 11 10 11 11 30 13 12 24 13 11 9 18 15 18 15 25 15 12 15 27 12 23 18 10 15 18 9 11 11
    Turkey 2 13 23 15 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 32 18 9-9 11 12 26 15 19 29 12-12-16-17 11 10 19-23 15 16 20 17 35-38 12 11 9 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 11 11 12 22-22 14 10 12 12 14 8 12 23 21 14 12 12 13 11 11 12 12 35 15 9 14 12 26 24 19 12 12 12 13 10 9 12 11 10 11 11 30 13 12 24 13 11 9 18 15 18 15 25 15 12 15 27 12 23 18 10 15 18 9 11 11
    Yemen 13 23 15 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 31 17 9-9 11 12 26 15 19 29 12-12-16-17 11 10 19-23 15 17 18 17 34-38 12 11 9 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 11 11 12 22-22 14 10 12 12 14 8 12 23 21 14 12 12 13 11 11 12 12 34 15 9 14 12 27 24 19 12 12 12 12 10 9 12 11 10 11 11 30 13 13 24 13 11 9 18 15 18 15 25 15 12 15 25 12 23 18 10 15 18 9 12 11
    Qatar 13 23 17 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 9-9 11 12 26 15 19 32 12-12-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 17 19 16 34-37 12 11 9 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 10 11 12 22-22 14 10 12 12 14 8 12 23 21 14 12 12 13 11 11 12 12 35 15 9 14 12 27 24 19 12 12 12 13 10 9 12 11 10 11 11 30 12 13 24 13 11 9 18 15 17 15 26 15 12 15 25 12 23 18 10 15 17 9 11 11
    Georgia 2 13 24 15 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 31 17 9-9 11 12 25 15 0 31 12-12-16-16 11 11 19-23 15 17 18 18 35-38 12 11 9 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 11 11 12 22-22 14 10 12 12 14 8 12 23 21 15 12 12 13 11 12 12 13 34 15 9 14 12 26 24 19 12 12 12 13 10 9 12 11 10 11 11 30 13 14 24 13 11 9 18 15 19 16 26 15 12 15 26 12 23 18 10 15 17 9 11 11
    Chechen 1 13 23 15 10 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-9 11 12 25 15 19 29 12-13-16-18 11 11 19-23 15 15 18 15 36-36 12 11 9 8 15-16 8 10 10 8 11 11 12 21-22 15 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 21 14 12 12 13 11 11 12 12 37 15 9 14 12 26 24 19 12 12 12 13 10 9 12 11 10 11 11 30 12 13 23 13 11 9 17 15 17 15 25 15 12 15 25 12 23 18 11 15 17 9 12 11

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    It's hard to say what branches are older and what are younger just on the value of the markers, especially when all members of the clade had common ancestor relatively recently. According to YFull common ancestor for four members of the YP5018 is 2700 years before present. STR homogenity also support such estimation

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP5018/

    About previous post: scientists in scientific papers mostly use just 17 markers of first 37 markers which use FTDNA. It'a a little bit lame, good for determination of the haplogroup (but not always) and for determination of the branch if common ancestor is older than 2000-3000 years. I wanted to answer but it would take a little bit more time and non stop checking of english

    Anyway I think that Hui man also belong to YP5018. I didn't success to find similar haplotypes in some other branches especially R1a and R1b

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    I just did some research on the Hui, as I hadn't heard of them before reading your post. At first I thought it was strange that YP5018 would exist in an ethnic group from China don't speak a Turkic language like the Uyghurs but speak Mandarin and have mixed thoroughly with Han Chinese. But then I learnt that the Hui are originally descended from merchants, soldiers and craftsmen who came to China from Islamic Persia and Central Asia during the 7th-13th centuries. If they came from Iran think it's very plausible that it is indeed YP5018. Well-done in spotting it!
    Last edited by TheAnatolian; 02-10-2020 at 10:56 AM.

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    A couple of people on molgen have claimed that they have discovered ancient samples that could be R-yp4141 from Meolithic Ukraine and Bronze Age Kazakhstan. I was able to find the data for the two samples in the European Nucleotide Archives with the help of xenus. Is there anyone here who has the capabilities and interest in analysing these two samples to verify that they are yp4141 > pre yp5018 as claimed by Russian posters on Molgen?

    Alternatively, if anyone has any advice on how I can veriy these claims myself I would be eternally greatful. Please see the molgen posts and sample data links below.

    I5876 Dereivka I Ukraine_Mesolithic 7040-6703 calBCE R1a
    http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/to...html#msg473675
    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB22652

    I4773 Aktogai_MLBA Kazakhstan 1618-1513 calBCE (329020 BP, PSUAMS-2607)
    http://forum.molgen.org/index.php?topic=12152.30
    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/ERS3411787

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  17. #10
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    Those English people has very low just 950 TMRCA so we can just consider them one lineage. There should be some turkic people in central asia given this subclade was present there in modern Kazakstan (ancient dna bronze age). And kurdish alevi baxtiyari tribe of turkmen origin has this subclade too. Still enigma though.
    Most distant known ancestor Qaraqoyunlu Turkmen Emir Saad, owner of the Chuxur Saad (Erivan province), Chieftain of the Turkoman Saadlu tribe (Black Sheep Turkomans) 14th century. Buried here : Hidden Content


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