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Thread: The origin of the mysterious R1a2a YP4141>YP5018.

  1. #11
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    Zaza / Laz / Turk / Kurd
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    R-YP5018 > R-Y62718
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    U3b2a1

    Lazistan AchaemenidEmpire1 Kurdistan Kingdom Ayyubid Dynasty Kurdistan Turkey
    It is true that there are two sister branches in Eastern Anatolia, one (R-FT256473) belonging to Kirmancki speaking Alevi people from Hozat, Dersim, and the other branch (R-FT333533) from Divigri & Erzincan regions who belong to Turkish or Turkmen Alevis. These two branches are downstream from a common branch (R-BY73972) but we are yet to find a member of this ghost branch so we do not know it's origin yet. Although it is downstream from R-S3738 which is found in Yemen so I think it is safe to say that it will be found somewhere in the Middle East.

    I myself belong to the Bextiyari tribe (R-FT256473) that you are speaking of. I have read the claims that the Alevi Baxtiyari tribe is of Turkmen origin. I'm not about to rule anything out just yet but I don't see any conclusive evidence for it. Firstly, if you look at the etymology of the word Bahtiyar itself, it is an Iranic word, not Turkic one. Secondly, I and the other Alevi Kirmaci and Turkmens have a distant match from a Sunni Kurd from Suleimaniya in the Kurdistan region of Iraq. Unfortunately, he has only done Y-12 test so we cannot read much into it but we're planning on helping him upgrade his kit so we can see just how closely or distantly he is related to us. If he is from that (R-BY73972) branch then I think that would be good evidence to suggest that the Bextiyari tribe is of a Kurdish origin and not a Turkmen.

    Turkmen Zaza branch.png

    I agree that R-YP4141>R-YP4132 could have arrived to India, Iran, and the general Middle East through Kazakhstan but if it did, it would have done so with the Indo-Iranian speakers of the Andronovo Culture just as R-Z93>Z94 did during the Bronze Age.

    As for R-YP5018, unfortunately, unlike its sister clade R-YP4132 we are yet to discover R-YP5018 in Europe or on the Eurasian Steppe so we cannot definitively say that both haplogroups R-YP5018 and R-YP4132 arrived together. But I can tell just by looking at the modern samples of R-YP5018 that it can be found in a multitude of ethnic and religious groups from Yemen int Southern Arabia to Chechniya and Georgia so it must have present in the region for many thousands of years. I doubt it very much that it arrived with Turkic tribes in the Middle Ages.
    Last edited by TheAnatolian; 06-28-2020 at 03:14 AM.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnatolian View Post
    Firstly, if you look at the etymology of the word Bahtiyar itself, it is an Iranic word, not Turkic one.
    Don't intend to nitpick, but due to the formative cultural synergism between the Medieval Turkic and Iranic-speaking world in Central Asia, I don't think the ultimate origin of the name "Baxtiyar" tells us much about the tribe's origins. This of course doesn't diminish the rest of your analysis (which looks independent of the etymology of that name).

    You are correct - "Baxtiyar" is ultimately of Iranic origin (the root noun, baxt, has an obvious derivation from Indo-Iranian *bagha, compare with Avestan baga, "good fate"; baxt is also one of those "core Iranic" vocab terms that's found in Iranic speakers from Anatolia all the way through to the Pamirs).

    One could argue, with equal plausibility, that your particular tribe received it's name via a Turkish intermediary - Much the same as the Danishmend dynasty (whose eponymous ancestor, Danishmend Ghazi, bore a name that's quite obviously Persian).
    I've seen some bizarre claims that "Danishmend" was a Turkic name, but the root term dan is either an Iranicised form of the Arabic word for religion deen (the origin of this term is disputed by scholars dispute the multiple Semitic cognates), or is derived from an originally Iranian term related to Avestan daena (which, coincidentally, also translates to religion or faith).
    This term is (oddly enough) a contentious one, as the use of "danishmend" has different applications depending on one's culturo-historical familiarity with it (f.ex. Turks recognise it as the name of a Turkish dynasty, Iranians view it as a slightly outdated denominator of vocation, Pakistanis seem use it via Urdu through a reduction of the original definition as an adjective, "intelligent").

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  5. #13
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    Lazistan AchaemenidEmpire1 Kurdistan Kingdom Ayyubid Dynasty Kurdistan Turkey
    DMXX -

    Yes, you are absoluelty right, we can't completely rule it out but from my experience, the vast majority of Turkic tribes in Anatolia have Turkic names. But yeah, I'm definitely not basing my whole argument on the Iranic origin of the word Baxtiyar.

    Your understanding of Iranic language is impressive. I wonder if the Baxt is also derived from the old Iranic word for God, Baga?
    Last edited by TheAnatolian; 06-28-2020 at 01:45 PM.

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  7. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnatolian View Post
    I wonder if the Baxt is also derived from the old Iranic word for God, Baga?
    Not derived, but of the same origin.

    Common Indo-Iranian *baghas, from our current reconstructions and based on the multiple connections with other languages (notably proto-Slavic), appeared to have been a multi-purpose word (akin to English "bark" or "mine").
    It had three distinct meanings (all of which are shared with proto-Slavic, either directly or through the addition of pre/suffixes) - Portion, fortune/luck and deity.
    Both the Avesta and the Rg Veda contain derivatives of *baghas, albeit through slightly differing forms (in the order of the above for Avestan - baxa "portion", bagha "good luck", baxa "non-malignant deity").

    Different downstream Indo-Iranian languages have retained at least one derivative of *baghas. In Modern Persian, it's via baxt (luck). In Hindi, it's baht (their currency, ergo, "portion").
    As far as I'm aware, only the Slavic languages (bog) and Turkic (beg) have retained the derivation of *baghas that involves deities (in Turkic, as we both know, beg/bey is a traditional title relating to a Lord).

    West Iranian-speaking peoples (specifically the Achaemenid Persians and Parthians) did use bagha to refer to God (it's unknown if the Medians did, but it's likely, given the Persians and Parthians had). However, bagha fell out of favour in the Iranian plateau and was replaced by terms such as yazdan (itself an old Indo-Iranian word used in Avestan to mean "divine", yazata) by the Sassanid period. The use of bagh did continue in Sassanid Persia to refer to a Lord, as is the case in the Turkic languages from the Medieval period onwards (and to this day in places like Turkey).

    Modern West Iranic languages don't use bagha to refer to God (per the above, their ancestors seemed to have dropped its' use by the Sassanid era). Instead, variants of xodah are used (for Modern Persian and Sorani Kurdish; I believe Kurmanji Kurdish uses xwede).
    As with bagha and yazdan, xodah is of Indo-Iranian origins and variants of it were widely used in multiple Iranic languages during the Classical period to denote a "master". The precise etymology of xodah isn't obvious (I've read that it may derive from a cognate of hvadh‚ta, "self-ruled", but I never found this convincing and there's no consensus I've read from the linguists concerning this). Some other related cognates may be Av. uxdha (a holy prayer).

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  9. #15
    Registered Users
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    Lazistan AchaemenidEmpire1 Kurdistan Kingdom Ayyubid Dynasty Kurdistan Turkey
    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    Not derived, but of the same origin.

    Common Indo-Iranian *baghas, from our current reconstructions and based on the multiple connections with other languages (notably proto-Slavic), appeared to have been a multi-purpose word (akin to English "bark" or "mine").
    It had three distinct meanings (all of which are shared with proto-Slavic, either directly or through the addition of pre/suffixes) - Portion, fortune/luck and deity.
    Both the Avesta and the Rg Veda contain derivatives of *baghas, albeit through slightly differing forms (in the order of the above for Avestan - baxa "portion", bagha "good luck", baxa "non-malignant deity").

    Different downstream Indo-Iranian languages have retained at least one derivative of *baghas. In Modern Persian, it's via baxt (luck). In Hindi, it's baht (their currency, ergo, "portion").
    As far as I'm aware, only the Slavic languages (bog) and Turkic (beg) have retained the derivation of *baghas that involves deities (in Turkic, as we both know, beg/bey is a traditional title relating to a Lord).

    West Iranian-speaking peoples (specifically the Achaemenid Persians and Parthians) did use bagha to refer to God (it's unknown if the Medians did, but it's likely, given the Persians and Parthians had). However, bagha fell out of favour in the Iranian plateau and was replaced by terms such as yazdan (itself an old Indo-Iranian word used in Avestan to mean "divine", yazata) by the Sassanid period. The use of bagh did continue in Sassanid Persia to refer to a Lord, as is the case in the Turkic languages from the Medieval period onwards (and to this day in places like Turkey).

    Modern West Iranic languages don't use bagha to refer to God (per the above, their ancestors seemed to have dropped its' use by the Sassanid era). Instead, variants of xodah are used (for Modern Persian and Sorani Kurdish; I believe Kurmanji Kurdish uses xwede).
    As with bagha and yazdan, xodah is of Indo-Iranian origins and variants of it were widely used in multiple Iranic languages during the Classical period to denote a "master". The precise etymology of xodah isn't obvious (I've read that it may derive from a cognate of hvadh‚ta, "self-ruled", but I never found this convincing and there's no consensus I've read from the linguists concerning this). Some other related cognates may be Av. uxdha (a holy prayer).
    That is fascinating. Thank you for sharing it!

  10. #16
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    Lazistan AchaemenidEmpire1 Kurdistan Kingdom Ayyubid Dynasty Kurdistan Turkey
    By the way, if anyone is interested in this topic I and other members of our subclade have created a Facebook page called 'R-YP4141 & Subclades'.

    We are constantly updating the information on there whenever we discover new branches or information relevant to our group. Please feel free to like it and join in the discussion. The link is below.

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/573539423259107/

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