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Thread: The origin of the mysterious R1a2a YP4141 > YP5018

  1. #1
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    Lightbulb The origin of the mysterious R1a2a YP4141 > YP5018

    I recently took a Y-111 DNA test with FTDNA in order to find out which haplogroup that I belonged to as I have a strong interest in history and knowledge of my ancestors. My paternal side is ethnic Zaza from Dersim, they are an Indo-Iranian language speaking people from South-Eastern Anatolia, similar to Kurds and Iranic people from the Caspian Sea. I knew that I was R1a because my brother had already done a test with 23andme but it wasn't a very deep test, so I decided to do a more in-depth y-DNA test with FTDNA. Initially, I assumed that our subclade would have been R-Z93 like the majority of Indo-Iranian speakers who are R1a. However, to my great surprise, when my results arrived I discovered that I was a part of a rare and somewhat mysterious subclade of R1a called YP5018.

    The main cluster of the subclade that I belong covers South-Eastern Anatolia, Northern Mesopotamia, and South Caucuses region with some outliers in Yemen, Qatar, and UAE. The people who have tested positive for YP5018 have been predominantly other Zaza people from the Dersim region, followed by Kurds from Iraq, Armenians, Georgians, Chechnians, Chaldeans, and Arabs from Yemen, Qatar, UAE. The Yemeni samples that I mentioned cluster closest to Zaza samples from Dersim. Our theory is that around 300-600 years ago one of my great, great, grand... uncles migrated to Yemen and settled there mixing with the local population, probably during the Ayyubid or Ottoman era. This explains why the Yemeni YP5018s are located so far from the main cluster in Northern Mesopotamia, South-Eastern Anatolia, and Caucuses region and match closest to people from Dersim rather than Arab samples in Iraq, Qatar, and UAE.

    Attachment 36210

    It has been proposed that haplogroup R1a (R-M420) originated somewhere in Southern Siberia at around 18,000 years ago and that YP4141 (our parent subclade) broke away from it some 13,000 years ago and formed a separate branch from the main R-M417 which is associated with the expansion of Indo-European languages during the Bronze Age, especially in Eastern Europe.

    We also have a sister subclade, namely YP4131, which broke away from our parent subclade YP4141 and today forms its main cluster on the other side of Europe in Ireland, Scottland, and England of all places. That group also has a number of outliers in Southern Italy, Kuwait, Iran, and India.

    Attachment 36211

    There are a few theories about the origins of our subclade but due to a lack of archeological evidence and rarity of our group, it's difficult to prove one theory over the other. One theory is that YP4141 is an archaic branch that originated locally in the Zagros mountains of Iran and which migrated into Europe during the Neolithic period via the Caucuses. Another theory is that YP4141 originated in Europe and then arrived in the Near East during the Indo-European expansion of the Bronze Age but became extinct in Europe hence a lack of samples. The third theory is that YP4141 originated in Southern Siberia and our particular subclade YP5018 migrated to the Near East while YP4131 migrated to the British Isles.

    I hope that one day scientists stop ignoring our weird and enigmatic group and put some effort into trying to figure out how we fit into the R1a puzzle. Because at the moment it seems like it's anyone's guess.

    Which theory do you think is the most plausible, and why? I would love to hear everyone's opinions on this frustratingly mysterious subclade of R1a.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by TheAnatolian; 02-04-2020 at 11:20 AM.

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  3. #2
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    R1a-YP4141 correlates pretty well with other ancient Iranian peoples and haplogroups like J1-FGC6064 in terms of chronology, bifurcations and locations. R1a-YP4141 arrived and merged with the same ancient Y-DNA "J" and mtDNA "HV-H" mating complex forming the CHG-Iranian-Rakhigarhi Mesolithic continuum in the anastomosis of Pre-Proto-Indo-European languages and cultures.
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    It seems to me that R1a-YP4141 spread to West Asia (and the Caucasus) with Indo-Iranian speakers alongside other lineages such as R1a-Z93, R1b-Z2103, J2b2-L283, and maybe even Q1b-L275.
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    What are the similarities between R1a-YP4141 and J1-FGC6064 ?
    1 - Both can be found in ancient Iranian peoples around the Caspian Sea.
    2 - Both bifurcated and expanded around 12000 ybp in Northern Middle East, that's a decisive Mesolithic indicator of well organized and ancient branches related to the initial Neolithization and domestication of animals.
    3 - Both can be found in Iran, Georgia, Eastern Anatolia, Northern Iraq, Persian Gulf.
    4 - Both can be found in Kurds, Zaza
    5 - Both have successful isolated Western European branches in Britain and/or Portugal
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  9. #5
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    You certainly make some interesting points about the similarities between R1a-YP4141 and J1-FGC6064. It's an angle that I hadn't thought about until now.
    So just to clarify, are you proposing that R1a-YP4141 and J1-FGC6064 were a part of the Neolithic Farmer expansion from Anatolia into Europe? If so, how do we reconcile that with the lack of R1a-YP4141 in the rest of Anatolia, Greece, Balkans, Sardinia or the Iberian Peninsula? The only sample that I have heard about coming from the Mediterranean region is a single R1a-YP4131 sample from Calabria, in Italy. https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/vi...mwv052UFNkqYHg I would have expected to see more R1a-YP4141 in North and West Anatolia, not just concentrated in one little corner and also in the Balkans and Mediterranian in general as those areas were not completely whitewashed by the Bronze Age expansion like in the rest of continental Europe.
    Last edited by TheAnatolian; 02-06-2020 at 05:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    What are the similarities between R1a-YP4141 and J1-FGC6064 ?
    1 - Both can be found in ancient Iranian peoples around the Caspian Sea.
    2 - Both bifurcated and expanded around 12000 ybp in Northern Middle East, that's a decisive Mesolithic indicator of well organized and ancient branches related to the initial Neolithization and domestication of animals.
    3 - Both can be found in Iran, Georgia, Eastern Anatolia, Northern Iraq, Persian Gulf.
    4 - Both can be found in Kurds, Zaza
    5 - Both have successful isolated Western European branches in Britain and/or Portugal
    Ridiculous.

    There was no R1a in the Near East until the Bronze Age.

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    Just follow the data. Do you have any scientific title or publication ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    Just follow the data. Do you have any scientific title or publication ?
    Yes, and the most important ones are listed at the bottom of this image.


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    R1a-YP4141 bifurcated around 12000 ybp long before the Ukrainian samples. The location of basal branches and the chronology of the bifurcations are good indicators for classifying phylogenies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    R1a-YP4141 bifurcated around 12000 ybp long before the Ukrainian samples. The location of basal branches and the chronology of the bifurcations are good indicators for classifying phylogenies.
    Iran: 0/6

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