The origin of the mysterious R1a2a YP4141 > YP5018

[TheAnatolian]

- Message Deleted -

[TheAnatolian]

I think RCO has made the most compelling arguement so far regarding the origin of R-YP5018. I understand that there are loads of ancient samples of R1a lines in Eastern Europe that are associated with the Bronze Age expansion of IE languages but there are no proven ancient R-YP4141 samples anywhere in Europe as far as I know. To be honest there aren't even that many modern samples. I find it hard to believe that it originated in Eastern Europe but it's line has subsequently vanished without a trace. Until we see some solid evidence I think that we will have to simply assume that R-YP4141 > R-YP5918 arrived in Iran/Northern Mesopotamia region before the Bronze Age. Just my humble opinion.

[Generalissimo]

I think RCO has made the most compelling arguement so far regarding the origin of R-YP5018. I understand that there are loads of ancient samples of R1a lines in Eastern Europe that are associated with the Bronze Age expansion of IE languages but there are no proven ancient R-YP4141 samples anywhere in Europe as far as I know. To be honest there aren't even that many modern samples. I find it hard to believe that it originated in Eastern Europe but it's line has subsequently vanished without a trace. Until we see some solid evidence I think that we will have to simply assume that R-YP4141 > R-YP5918 arrived in Iran/Northern Mesopotamia region before the Bronze Age. Just my humble opinion.

Arrived from where in Iran/Northern Mesopotamia?

Currently the oldest by far instances of R1a are from Eastern Europe, so these are also the most basal and ancestral clades.

There are even older cases of R1a from Eastern Europe in unpublished data, in the far north of Russia, but none at all from before the Bronze Age anywhere in Asia.

RCO made compelling arguments? LOL

[TheAnatolian]

I think it's safe to say that R-SYR1542.2 and all the subclades below it are thoroughly European in origin. But I am not 100% convinced about R-YP4141 or R-M479. We all know that haplogroup R originated in Northern Eurasia with the Ancient Eurasians. Is it inconceivable that the R-YP4141 and R-M479 might have split off from R-SYR1542.2 very early on and migrated south into Southern Eurasia / South-Western Eurasia while the more successful SYR1542.2 migrated west to Eastern Europe?

To be honest, I am not emotionally invested in either theory. It would be great if a basal sample of R-YP4141 is found in Eastern Europe or anywhere for that matter, because then at least I will be able to get a definitive answer to my question regarding the origin of the subclade that I belong to. I cannot comment on any unpublished data for obvious reasons. I can only make up my mind using the information that is available to me right now. And by looking at the dates of formation and the TMRCA of the Asian branches of R-YP4141 and R-M479 on YTree at yfull.com, they appear to be much more ancient compared to the ones from Europe.

If there is some unpublished data out there that is going to make me eat my words, then all I can say is that I hope that they start publishing them soon.

[JoeyP37]

I wouldn't mind seeing more basal clades of R1a in Zagros/Caucasian mountains, if only to put a serious wrench in Carlos Quiles' goofy R1a theories. Finding basal clades in Northern European Russia doesn't help, although I can think of more logical Uralic to Indo-European language shifts than what he puts out.

[xenus]

I wouldn't mind seeing more basal clades of R1a in Zagros/Caucasian mountains, if only to put a serious wrench in Carlos Quiles' goofy R1a theories. Finding basal clades in Northern European Russia doesn't help, although I can think of more logical Uralic to Indo-European language shifts than what he puts out.

Just a quick search for R1a>YP4141 brought up a post on his site with a link to molgen where someone typed one of the samples from mathieson et al. (2018) as R1a>YP4141>pre-YP5018.
In the supplement the sample was labelled

I5876 Dereivka I Ukraine_Mesolithic 7040-6703 calBCE R1a

let's be fair to carlos though, to put a wrench in his theories would kill him because the only place they'll ever be real is in his head.

[TheAnatolian]

Just a quick search for R1a>YP4141 brought up a post on his site with a link to molgen where someone typed one of the samples from mathieson et al. (2018) as R1a>YP4141>pre-YP5018.
In the supplement the sample was labelled

I5876 Dereivka I Ukraine_Mesolithic 7040-6703 calBCE R1a

Do you think you could share the link to it? I tried searching for it but was unable to find it. I'd love to read it for myself.

Thanks

[TheAnatolian]

A couple of people on molgen have claimed that they have discovered ancient samples that could be R-yp4141 from Meolithic Ukraine and Bronze Age Kazakhstan. I was able to find the data for the two samples in the European Nucleotide Archives with the help of xenus. Is there anyone here who has the capabilities and interest in analysing these two samples to verify that they are yp4141 > pre yp5018 as claimed by Russian posters on Molgen?

Alternatively, if anyone has any advice on how I can veriy these claims myself I would be eternally greatful. Please see the molgen posts and sample data links below.

I5876 Dereivka I Ukraine_Mesolithic 7040-6703 calBCE R1a
http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/to...html#msg473675
https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB22652

I4773 Aktogai_MLBA Kazakhstan 1618-1513 calBCE (3290±20 BP, PSUAMS-2607)
http://forum.molgen.org/index.php?topic=12152.30
https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/ERS3411787

[TheAnatolian]

By the way, if anyone is interested in this topic, myself and other members of our subclade have created a Facebook page called 'R-YP4141 & Subclades'.

We are constantly updating the information on the Facebook page whenever we discover new branches or find any information relevant to our group. Please feel free to join and get involved in the discussion. The link is below.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/573539423259107/

Cheer!