do somalis have any iranian neolithic ancestry?

**Qrts** · 11-27-2022, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by afbarwaaqo

could there be additional iran_n ancestry hidden when natufian is used? natufian gets 15% iran_n on this model

That's quite unlikely considering Iran N and Natufian are very differentiated ancestries.

Originally Posted by afbarwaaqo

can you post how natufian is modeled on qpadm?

As Gentica said, there are some models in Lazaridis et al. official paper. Since you are interested, here are some models I did by myself:

right = c('Mbuti.HO', 'Ami.HO', 'Mixe.HO', 'Russia_Kostenki14', 'Russia_Samara_HG', 'Italy_North_Villabruna_HG')

Code:

> results$weights
# A tibble: 2 x 5
  target          left                   weight     se     z
  <chr>           <chr>                   <dbl>  <dbl> <dbl>
1 Levant_Natufian Turkey_Epipaleolithic   0.678 0.0445 15.2 
2 Levant_Natufian Morocco_Iberomaurusian  0.322 0.0445  7.24
> 
> results$popdrop 
# A tibble: 3 x 13
  pat      wt   dof  chisq        p f4rank Turkey_Epipaleolithic Morocco_Iberomaurusian feasible best  dofdiff chisqdiff p_nested
  <chr> <dbl> <dbl>  <dbl>    <dbl>  <dbl>                 <dbl>                  <dbl> <lgl>    <lgl>   <dbl>     <dbl>    <dbl>
1 00        0     4   1.40 8.44e- 1      1                 0.678                  0.322 TRUE     NA         NA       NA        NA
2 01        1     5  53.5  2.66e-10      0                 1                     NA     TRUE     TRUE        0     -261.        1
3 10        1     5 315.   6.17e-66      0                NA                      1     TRUE     TRUE       NA       NA        NA
>

Keep in mind Pinarbasi HG is WHG-admixed so it's not the best proxy indeed. Here's another model using a variety of Neolithic Anatolians (excepting Boncuklu N):

Code:

> results$weights
# A tibble: 2 x 5
  target          left                   weight     se     z
  <chr>           <chr>                   <dbl>  <dbl> <dbl>
1 Levant_Natufian Turkey_N                0.709 0.0362 19.6 
2 Levant_Natufian Morocco_Iberomaurusian  0.291 0.0362  8.03
> 
> results$popdrop 
# A tibble: 3 x 13
  pat      wt   dof  chisq        p f4rank Turkey_N Morocco_Iberomaurusian feasible best  dofdiff chisqdiff p_nested
  <chr> <dbl> <dbl>  <dbl>    <dbl>  <dbl>    <dbl>                  <dbl> <lgl>    <lgl>   <dbl>     <dbl>    <dbl>
1 00        0     4   2.31 6.79e- 1      1    0.709                  0.291 TRUE     NA         NA       NA        NA
2 01        1     5 122.   1.27e-24      0    1                     NA     TRUE     TRUE        0     -300.        1
3 10        1     5 422.   5.78e-89      0   NA                      1     TRUE     TRUE       NA       NA        NA

**Gentica277282** · 11-27-2022, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by Freb

Anatolian like? Aren't they about 50% Basal Eurasian and 50% "Unknown Hunter Gatherer"?

That's the old model. With the new model he claims they are mostly Anatolian like with deeper ancestry he never directly states it's ibm

**Gentica277282** · 11-27-2022, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by Qrts

That's quite unlikely considering Iran N and Natufian are very differentiated ancestries.

As Gentica said, there are some models in Lazaridis et al. official paper. Since you are interested, here are some models I did by myself:

Code:

> results$weights
# A tibble: 2 x 5
  target          left                   weight     se     z
  <chr>           <chr>                   <dbl>  <dbl> <dbl>
1 Levant_Natufian Turkey_Epipaleolithic   0.678 0.0445 15.2 
2 Levant_Natufian Morocco_Iberomaurusian  0.322 0.0445  7.24
> 
> results$popdrop 
# A tibble: 3 x 13
  pat      wt   dof  chisq        p f4rank Turkey_Epipaleolithic Morocco_Iberomaurusian feasible best  dofdiff chisqdiff p_nested
  <chr> <dbl> <dbl>  <dbl>    <dbl>  <dbl>                 <dbl>                  <dbl> <lgl>    <lgl>   <dbl>     <dbl>    <dbl>
1 00        0     4   1.40 8.44e- 1      1                 0.678                  0.322 TRUE     NA         NA       NA        NA
2 01        1     5  53.5  2.66e-10      0                 1                     NA     TRUE     TRUE        0     -261.        1
3 10        1     5 315.   6.17e-66      0                NA                      1     TRUE     TRUE       NA       NA        NA
>

Keep in mind Pinarbasi HG is WHG-admixed so it's not the best proxy indeed. Here's another model using a variety of Neolithic Anatolians (excepting Boncuklu N):

Code:

> results$weights
# A tibble: 2 x 5
  target          left                   weight     se     z
  <chr>           <chr>                   <dbl>  <dbl> <dbl>
1 Levant_Natufian Turkey_N                0.709 0.0362 19.6 
2 Levant_Natufian Morocco_Iberomaurusian  0.291 0.0362  8.03
> 
> results$popdrop 
# A tibble: 3 x 13
  pat      wt   dof  chisq        p f4rank Turkey_N Morocco_Iberomaurusian feasible best  dofdiff chisqdiff p_nested
  <chr> <dbl> <dbl>  <dbl>    <dbl>  <dbl>    <dbl>                  <dbl> <lgl>    <lgl>   <dbl>     <dbl>    <dbl>
1 00        0     4   2.31 6.79e- 1      1    0.709                  0.291 TRUE     NA         NA       NA        NA
2 01        1     5 122.   1.27e-24      0    1                     NA     TRUE     TRUE        0     -300.        1
3 10        1     5 422.   5.78e-89      0   NA                      1     TRUE     TRUE       NA       NA        NA

That percentage of ibm ancestry is more then enough to drift them from Anatolians

**Qrts** · 11-27-2022, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by Gentica277282

That percentage of ibm ancestry is more then enough to drift them from Anatolians

Yes indeed that's the most reasonable explanation.

**drobbah** · 11-27-2022, 05:03 PM

Iran_N & Arabain ancestry levels increase when using those new Natufian samples

Code:

Target: Drobbah_FTDNA_scaled
Distance: 4.4134% / 0.04413421
55.2	Sudanese:SUDANESE7
28.2	ISR_Natufian_EpiP:I1072
12.8	Saudi
3.8	Iberomaurusian

Target: Somali_Somalia
Distance: 4.3350% / 0.04335015
55.2	Sudanese:SUDANESE7
30.0	ISR_Natufian_EpiP:I1072
13.0	Saudi
1.8	Iberomaurusian

Code:

Target: Somali_Somalia
Distance: 4.3867% / 0.04386669
55.4	Sudanese:SUDANESE7
40.6	ISR_Natufian_EpiP:I1072
3.8	Iran_N
0.2	Morocco_UP_Taforalt_(Iberomaurusian)

Target: Drobbah_FTDNA_scaled
Distance: 4.4136% / 0.04413578
55.4	Sudanese:SUDANESE7
38.2	ISR_Natufian_EpiP:I1072
4.2	Iran_N
2.2	Morocco_UP_Taforalt_(Iberomaurusian)

**drobbah** · 11-27-2022, 05:07 PM

KEN_IA + New Natufian or Saudi:

Code:

Target: Somali_Somalia
Distance: 3.2277% / 0.03227699
76.0	Kenya_Pastoral_IA
24.0	ISR_Natufian_EpiP:I1072

Target: Drobbah_FTDNA_scaled
Distance: 3.3760% / 0.03376016
76.8	Kenya_Pastoral_IA
23.2	ISR_Natufian_EpiP:I1072

Code:

Target: Drobbah_FTDNA_scaled
Distance: 3.8008% / 0.03800814
77.2	Kenya_Pastoral_IA
22.8	Saudi

Target: Somali_Somalia
Distance: 3.5437% / 0.03543693
76.2	Kenya_Pastoral_IA
23.8	Saudi

With Both Natufian & Arabians included:

Code:

Target: Drobbah_FTDNA_scaled
Distance: 3.2087% / 0.03208708
76.6	Kenya_Pastoral_IA
15.4	ISR_Natufian_EpiP:I1072
8.0	Saudi

Target: Somali_Somalia
Distance: 2.9663% / 0.02966333
75.6	Kenya_Pastoral_IA
14.8	ISR_Natufian_EpiP:I1072
9.6	Saudi

**Bulletproofpride** · 11-29-2022, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by drobbah

KEN_IA + New Natufian or Saudi:

Code:

Target: Somali_Somalia
Distance: 3.2277% / 0.03227699
76.0	Kenya_Pastoral_IA
24.0	ISR_Natufian_EpiP:I1072

Target: Drobbah_FTDNA_scaled
Distance: 3.3760% / 0.03376016
76.8	Kenya_Pastoral_IA
23.2	ISR_Natufian_EpiP:I1072

Code:

Target: Drobbah_FTDNA_scaled
Distance: 3.8008% / 0.03800814
77.2	Kenya_Pastoral_IA
22.8	Saudi

Target: Somali_Somalia
Distance: 3.5437% / 0.03543693
76.2	Kenya_Pastoral_IA
23.8	Saudi

With Both Natufian & Arabians included:

Code:

Target: Drobbah_FTDNA_scaled
Distance: 3.2087% / 0.03208708
76.6	Kenya_Pastoral_IA
15.4	ISR_Natufian_EpiP:I1072
8.0	Saudi

Target: Somali_Somalia
Distance: 2.9663% / 0.02966333
75.6	Kenya_Pastoral_IA
14.8	ISR_Natufian_EpiP:I1072
9.6	Saudi

I thought Kenyan pastoralist were already harbouring large amounts of Natufian like ancestry. Why does the calculator show a separate additional Natufian? Wouldn’t the Somali ancestry be completely similar to the Kenyan pastoralists? Why the separate 25% Natufian?

**Typic** · 11-30-2022, 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by Bulletproofpride

I thought Kenyan pastoralist were already harbouring large amounts of Natufian like ancestry. Why does the calculator show a separate additional Natufian? Wouldn’t the Somali ancestry be completely similar to the Kenyan pastoralists? Why the separate 25% Natufian?

As a result of Dinka-like Sudanic incursion, Kenya_Pastoral_IA are samples with only a bit over half Somali-like ancestry.

**Gentica277282** · 12-06-2022, 02:24 AM

While we are on the subject of Somalis, Do you think the natufian component is an arab signal? Etc do somalis prefer Levant_Tell_Qarassa_Early_Antiquity over natufian which I think would be a better fit

**Bulletproofpride** · 12-06-2022, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by Gentica277282

While we are on the subject of Somalis, Do you think the natufian component is an arab signal? Etc do somalis prefer Levant_Tell_Qarassa_Early_Antiquity over natufian which I think would be a better fit

Do you mean the extra additional Natufian shown when ancient Kenyan pastoralists is used?

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