Results 1 to 4 of 4

Thread: Global 25 Ancient Britain & Irish vs Present day NW Europeans

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,928
    Sex
    Location
    Tierra de Ayllon
    Y-DNA (P)
    U152>L2>Z49>Z142>
    mtDNA (M)
    H1
    Y-DNA (M)
    I2a2a1b2a1b1>Y4925
    mtDNA (P)
    H37

    England Scotland Wales Germany Northern Ireland Ireland

    Global 25 Ancient Britain & Irish vs Present day NW Europeans

    Just a fun exercise that may be of little practical value in many cases, but what the heck.

    What would it look like when you put all the ancient Britain and Ireland samples grouped geographically (all the ancient England samples, then all Scotland, Ireland, etc) and compared to present day NW Europeans

    England: Results of Combined England_Anglo-Saxon, England_CA_EBA, England_IA, England_LBA, England_MBA, England_N, England_Roman

    England Neolithic. Has the greatest affinity to present day France & Belgium.
    French:Average 22.5%
    French_East:Average 19.17%
    Belgian:Average 15.83%
    English_Cornwall:Average 9.17%
    Orcadian:Average 7.5%
    English:Average 7.5%
    Welsh:Average 6.67%
    German:Average 6.67%
    Scottish:Average 5%
    Dutch:Average 3.33%
    Irish:Average 3.33%
    Swedish:Average 1.67%
    Icelandic:Average 1.67%
    Shetlandic:Average 0.83%
    Norwegian:Average 0.83%

    England Copper Age/Bronze Age. Again NE France/Belgium at the top of the list.
    French_East:Average 25.83%
    French:Average 20.83%
    Belgian:Average 20%
    Welsh:Average 10.83%
    Norwegian:Average 9.17%
    Dutch:Average 6.67%
    Orcadian:Average 6.67%
    Shetlandic:Average 5%
    Swedish:Average 5%
    English_Cornwall:Average 4.17%
    Irish:Average 1.67%
    English:Average 1.67%
    Icelandic:Average 0.83%
    Scottish:Average 0.83%
    German:Average 0%

    England Middle Bronze Age (MBA2) For some reason there seems to be a Nordic affinity in the 15001000 BC timeframe.
    Orcadian:Average 24.17%
    Swedish:Average 20.83%
    Scottish:Average 16.67%
    Icelandic:Average 16.67%
    Shetlandic:Average 16.67%
    Welsh:Average 15%
    Dutch:Average 15%
    English_Cornwall:Average 14.17%
    Irish:Average 13.33%
    Norwegian:Average 10%
    English:Average 8.33%
    German:Average 0%
    French_East:Average 0%
    French:Average 0%
    Belgian:Average 0%

    England Late Bronze Age. Every present day country got 0% for this one. Not sure what to make of that. Maybe there wasn't much genetic impact on present populations from the 1000-700 BC timeframe

    England Iron Age (800 BC - 100 AD) There seems to be a Germanic/Celtic mix with no clear pattern. Maybe this is in part from the arrival of the Hallstatt, La Tene, Belgae and then the Germanic Roman auxiliary mixing with the local Britons.
    German:Average 21.67%
    Irish:Average 20.83%
    Swedish:Average 20%
    Welsh:Average 18.33%
    English:Average 18.33%
    Norwegian:Average 17.5%
    Scottish:Average 15%
    French_East:Average 14.17%
    French:Average 13.33%
    Belgian:Average 12.5%
    Dutch:Average 11.67%
    Icelandic:Average 7.5%
    Orcadian:Average 5.83%
    Shetlandic:Average 5.83%
    English_Cornwall:Average 0.83%

    England Roman (43 - 400 AD)
    German:Average 56.67%
    English_Cornwall:Average 40.83%
    English:Average 40.83%
    Orcadian:Average 36.67%
    French:Average 33.33%
    Scottish:Average 33.33%
    Irish:Average 33.33%
    Belgian:Average 32.5%
    Dutch:Average 30.83%
    Shetlandic:Average 23.33%
    French_East:Average 20%
    Icelandic:Average 17.5%
    Welsh:Average 11.67%
    Swedish:Average 11.67%
    Norwegian:Average 0%

    England Anglo-Saxon No surprise on the first 4, but kind of surprised that present day Welsh is so high on this list. Much higher than the English.
    Norwegian:Average 62.5%
    Icelandic:Average 55.83%
    Shetlandic:Average 48.33%
    Swedish:Average 40.83%
    Welsh:Average 37.5%
    Dutch:Average 32.5%
    English_Cornwall:Average 30.83%
    Scottish:Average 29.17%
    Irish:Average 27.5%
    English:Average 23.33%
    French_East:Average 20.83%
    Orcadian:Average 19.17%
    Belgian:Average 19.17%
    German:Average 15%
    French:Average 10%
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Scotland: Scotland_CA_EBA, Scotland_LBA, Scotland_MBA, Scotland_N

    Scotland Neolithic: Just like in England Neolithic, an affinity to France & Belgium.
    French:Average 25%
    French_East:Average 22.5%
    Belgian:Average 17.5%
    German:Average 10.83%
    English_Cornwall:Average 8.33%
    English:Average 7.5%
    Orcadian:Average 5%
    Scottish:Average 5%
    Dutch:Average 4.17%
    Welsh:Average 2.5%
    Irish:Average 2.5%
    Shetlandic:Average 0.83%
    Swedish:Average 0%
    Norwegian:Average 0%
    Icelandic:Average 0%

    Scotland Copper Age/Bronze Age. Like in England during this period, France East is at the top of the list
    French_East:Average 42.5%
    German:Average 39.17%
    Swedish:Average 35.83%
    Norwegian:Average 30%
    Icelandic:Average 21.67%
    Dutch:Average 19.17%
    Welsh:Average 19.17%
    Belgian:Average 15.83%
    French:Average 15%
    Orcadian:Average 13.33%
    English:Average 10.83%
    Scottish:Average 4.17%
    English_Cornwall:Average 2.5%
    Irish:Average 0%
    Shetlandic:Average 0%

    Scotland Middle Bronze Age (MBA2) Unlike Middle Bronze Age England which appears to have a Nordic affinity, Scotland has more of a German/Dutch/Eastern France affinity in the 15001000 BC timeframe.
    German:Average 34.17%
    Dutch:Average 33.33%
    French_East:Average 25.83%
    French:Average 25%
    Swedish:Average 23.33%
    Norwegian:Average 23.33%
    Scottish:Average 23.33%
    Icelandic:Average 19.17%
    Shetlandic:Average 18.33%
    Belgian:Average 15.83%
    English:Average 13.33%
    English_Cornwall:Average 13.33%
    Orcadian:Average 10%
    Irish:Average 7.5%
    Welsh:Average 0%

    Scotland Late Bronze Age. Very strong affinity with the present day "Celtic" regions i.e. Ireland, Wales, and Cornwall. Very different result from England during period
    Irish:Average 90%
    Shetlandic:Average 80.83%
    Welsh:Average 78.33%
    English_Cornwall:Average 75.83%
    Orcadian:Average 71.67%
    English:Average 68.33%
    Scottish:Average 67.5%
    Icelandic:Average 59.17%
    Belgian:Average 50.83%
    Norwegian:Average 46.67%
    Dutch:Average 43.33%
    Swedish:Average 40.83%
    French:Average 35%
    German:Average 15.83%
    French_East:Average 9.17
    --------------------------------------------------
    Ireland: Ireland_EBA +Ireland_MN. This is probably just present day populations' affinity to Bell Beaker vs Pre Bell Beaker in Ireland

    Ireland Middle Neolithic. It appears that present day France might retain more of it's Pre bell beaker ancestry when compared to other areas of NW Europe?
    French:Average 31.67%
    French_East:Average 28.33%
    Belgian:Average 25%
    English_Cornwall:Average 18.33%
    German:Average 17.5%
    English:Average 16.67%
    Orcadian:Average 14.17%
    Scottish:Average 13.33%
    Dutch:Average 12.5%
    Irish:Average 12.5%
    Welsh:Average 11.67%
    Shetlandic:Average 9.17%
    Icelandic:Average 7.5%
    Norwegian:Average 6.67%
    Swedish:Average 6.67%


    Ireland Early Bronze Age.
    Norwegian:Average 93.33%
    Swedish:Average 93.33%
    Icelandic:Average 92.5%
    Shetlandic:Average 90.83%
    Welsh:Average 88.33%
    Dutch:Average 87.5%
    Irish:Average 87.5%
    Scottish:Average 86.67%
    Orcadian:Average 85.83%
    English:Average 83.33%
    German:Average 82.5%
    English_Cornwall:Average 81.67%
    Belgian:Average 75%
    French_East:Average 71.67%
    French:Average 68.33%
    --------------------------------------------------------
    Wales: Wales_CA_EBA +Wales_N

    Wales Neolithic: Again present day France seems closer to the original neolithic population than other areas of Northwest Europe.
    French:Average 29.17%
    French_East:Average 25.83%
    Belgian:Average 22.5%
    German:Average 15%
    English_Cornwall:Average 14.17%
    English:Average 12.5%
    Dutch:Average 10%
    Orcadian:Average 10%
    Scottish:Average 10%
    Welsh:Average 10%
    Irish:Average 9.17%
    Shetlandic:Average 6.67%
    Icelandic:Average 5%
    Norwegian:Average 5%
    Swedish:Average 5%

    Wales Copper Age/Early Bronze Age: More affinity to present day Nordic countries
    Icelandic:Average 95%
    Norwegian:Average 95%
    Swedish:Average 95%
    Shetlandic:Average 93.33%
    Irish:Average 90.83%
    Dutch:Average 90%
    Orcadian: Average 90%
    Scottish:Average 90%
    Welsh:Average 90%
    English:Average 87.5%
    English_Cornwall:Average 85.83%
    German:Average 85%
    Belgian:Average 77.5%
    French_East:Average 74.17%
    French:Average 70.83%
    -------------------------------------------
    Finally FWIW, comparing Beaker Britain to Beaker Central Europe
    Sample Fit Beaker Britain Beaker Central Europe
    French_East:Average 1.0402 0.83% 99.17%
    French:Average 1.131 5% 95%
    German:Average 1.0824 11.67% 88.33%
    Welsh:Average 1.3873 16.67% 83.33%
    Belgian:Average 1.1307 19.17% 80.83%
    Norwegian:Average 1.5551 32.5% 67.5%
    Swedish:Average 1.5483 37.5% 62.5%
    English_Cornwall:Average 1.4961 40.83% 59.17%
    Dutch:Average 1.3201 43.33% 56.67%
    Scottish:Average 1.2249 49.17% 50.83%
    English:Average 1.2779 50% 50%
    Shetlandic:Average 1.8495 52.5% 47.5%
    Icelandic:Average 1.496 54.17% 45.83%
    Orcadian:Average 1.0121 54.17% 45.83%
    Irish:Average 1.481 56.67% 43.33%
    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
    Hidden Content

  2. The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to MitchellSince1893 For This Useful Post:

     Aroon1916 (12-29-2018),  Garimund (12-29-2018),  Jessie (12-29-2018),  JMcB (12-28-2018),  JonikW (12-29-2018),  jstephan (02-24-2020),  randwulf (12-28-2018),  timberwolf (12-28-2018),  Wing Genealogist (12-29-2018)

  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,928
    Sex
    Location
    Tierra de Ayllon
    Y-DNA (P)
    U152>L2>Z49>Z142>
    mtDNA (M)
    H1
    Y-DNA (M)
    I2a2a1b2a1b1>Y4925
    mtDNA (P)
    H37

    England Scotland Wales Germany Northern Ireland Ireland
    On a personal level here were my results for each Geographic area

    England
    Fit: 1.3508
    England Anglo-Saxon: 1.67%
    England CA EBA: 0%
    England IA: 40%
    England LBA: 0%
    England MBA2: 7.5%
    England N: 0%
    England Roman: 50.83%

    Scotland
    Fit: 2.1094
    Scotland N 3.33%
    Scotland CA EBA 33.33%
    Scotland MBA 27.5%
    Scotland LBA 35.83%

    Ireland
    Fit 2.5268
    Ireland MN 11.67%
    Ireland EBA 88.33%

    Wales
    Fit 2.8179
    Wales N 8.33%
    Wales CA EBA 91.67%

    Bell Beaker
    Fit 1.6882
    Beaker Britain 37.5
    Beaker Central Europe 62.5

    And all of them combined (minus the beaker samples)
    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
    Hidden Content

  4. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to MitchellSince1893 For This Useful Post:

     Garimund (12-29-2018),  Jessie (12-29-2018),  JMcB (12-29-2018),  JonikW (12-29-2018)

  5. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,928
    Sex
    Location
    Tierra de Ayllon
    Y-DNA (P)
    U152>L2>Z49>Z142>
    mtDNA (M)
    H1
    Y-DNA (M)
    I2a2a1b2a1b1>Y4925
    mtDNA (P)
    H37

    England Scotland Wales Germany Northern Ireland Ireland
    By chronology

    Neolithic


    Copper Age/Early Bronze Age


    Middle Bronze Age to Iron Age


    Roman and Anglo-Saxon Period
    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
    Hidden Content

  6. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to MitchellSince1893 For This Useful Post:

     Aroon1916 (12-29-2018),  Garimund (12-29-2018),  Jessie (12-29-2018),  JMcB (12-29-2018),  JonikW (12-29-2018),  Wing Genealogist (12-29-2018)

  7. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    5,335
    Sex
    Location
    Poland
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-Z2552
    mtDNA (M)
    W6a

    Poland European Union
    How about checking some individual samples?

    It is interesting to compare individual Bronze Age samples with different levels of Neolithic British DNA:

    G25 scaled coordinates, distances of ancient individuals to full modern populations averages datasheet:

    Distance to: Bell_Beaker_England:I2416 (41% Neolithic British according to the official study):
    0.05189469 Basque_Spanish
    0.05292850 French_South
    0.05369300 French_Occitanie
    0.05375401 Spanish_Soria
    0.05376447 Basque_French
    (...)

    Distance to: Bell_Beaker_England:I1767 (26% Neolithic British according to the official study):
    0.02822366 Orcadian
    0.02969795 English_Cornwall
    0.03015939 English
    0.03022438 Scottish
    0.03076527 Welsh
    0.03150396 French_Brittany
    0.03255775 Irish
    (...)

    Distance to: Scotland_LBA:I2859 (18% Neolithic British according to the official study):
    0.02322505 Welsh
    0.02455399 Irish
    0.02561519 English
    0.02573993 English_Cornwall
    0.02593560 Scottish
    0.02600515 Orcadian
    0.02735488 French_Brittany
    (...)

    Distance to: Scotland_LBA:I2861 (17% Neolithic British according to the official study):
    0.02370501 Orcadian
    0.02441159 Irish
    0.02528121 Scottish
    0.02696494 Shetlandic
    (...)

    =====

    If you run samples with just 10% Neolithic British, they will not be so close to modern British populations.

    Because modern British people have around 20% of Neolithic British DNA - not the too often repeated 10%.

    =====

    Neolithic British DNA levels for all individuals, the ones with ca. 20% are the most similar to modern British:

    https://static-content.springer.com/...MOESM2_ESM.pdf - see Tables S9, S10 and S11



    This one - I5367 - was just 10% British Neolithic, and that's why is not so close to modern British, who are more Neolithic:

    Using Global25 scaled again:

    Distance to: Bell_Beaker_Scotland:I5367
    0.02862240 Icelandic
    0.03007086 Swedish
    0.03263945 Norwegian
    (...)



    ^^^
    On the other hand, I5379 (who was exactly 20% British Neolithic as seen above) is closest to modern Orcadians and Scottish.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 02-25-2020 at 09:23 AM.

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to Tomenable For This Useful Post:

     jstephan (02-24-2020)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 720
    Last Post: 07-12-2020, 07:31 AM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-09-2019, 02:55 PM
  3. A clustering of the Europeans from Global 25
    By Huijbregts in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 149
    Last Post: 08-13-2019, 06:00 PM
  4. Towards a better modelling of NorthWest Europeans in Global 25
    By Huijbregts in forum Autosomal (auDNA)
    Replies: 98
    Last Post: 05-17-2019, 06:12 PM
  5. African admixture in ancient Europeans
    By sciencediver in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 03-08-2016, 04:34 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •