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Thread: East Eurasian ancestry in various Turkic populations

  1. #1
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    East Eurasian ancestry in various Turkic populations

    Sample size:

    Azerbaijani (n=11)
    Balkar (n=8)
    Bashkir (MDLP spreadsheet)
    Chuvash (n=18)
    Crimean_Tatar_Steppe (n=9)
    Gagauz (n=12)
    Karachay (n=4)
    Karakalpak (MDLP spreadsheet)
    Kazakh (n=21)
    Kumyk (n=3)
    Kyrgyz (n=28)
    Nogai (MDLP spreadsheet)
    Tatar_Kazan (n=20)
    Turk_Anatolia (n=387)
    Turk_Bulgaria (n=42)
    Turkmen_Afghanistan (n=3)
    Turkmen_Ashgabat (n=9)
    Turkmen_Iraq (n=3)
    Turkmen_Uzbekistan (n=8)
    Uzbek (n=18)
    Uzbek_Afghanistan (MDLP spreadsheet)
    Uyghur (MDLP spreadsheet)
    Uyghur_Han (MDLP spreadsheet)

    Full size: https://abload.de/img/111zwi6k.png
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  3. #2
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    A lot of the East Eurasian looks Mongolian-derived for some of these groups (specifically the Uzbeks and Kyrgyz), which is in line with history (Chagatai khanate).

    With our group (Oghuz Turkic speakers), on the other hand, it's predominantly Karakhanid-derived, particularly for Turks and Azeris (the Turkmen seem to have additional Mongolian).

    This pattern is based on the preference for Karakhanid over Mongols as a source in the above groups, though that doesn't mean the Karakhanids directly contributed all of such ancestry in Oghuz Turkic speakers.

    My own modelling showed that Kazakhs are the most Karakhanid-derived (around 70%) of modern Central Asians.

    In case you'd like to update the map with them, Iranian Azeris are about 5% East Eurasian (based on a simple nMonte run with Hajji_Firuz_ChL + Sintashta + Han).
    Last edited by DMXX; 12-19-2018 at 04:39 PM. Reason: Grammatical errors

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    A lot of the East Eurasian looks Mongolian-derived for some of these groups (specifically the Uzbeks and Kyrgyz), which is in line with history (Chagatai khanate).

    With our group (Oghuz Turkic speakers), on the other hand, it's predominantly Karakhanid-derived, particularly for Turks and Azeris (the Turkmen seem to have additional Mongolian).

    This pattern is based on the preference for Karakhanid over Mongols as a source in the above groups, though that doesn't mean the Karakhanids directly contributed all of such ancestry in Oghuz Turkic speakers.

    My own modelling showed that Kazakhs are the most Karakhanid-derived (around 70%) of modern Central Asians.

    In case you'd like to update the map with them, Iranian Azeris are about 5% East Eurasian (based on a simple nMonte run with Hajji_Firuz_ChL + Sintashta + Han).
    Also interesting to note that Y-DNA haplogroup J2a turned up among the ancient Karakhanid samples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    With our group (Oghuz Turkic speakers), on the other hand, it's predominantly Karakhanid-derived, particularly for Turks and Azeris (the Turkmen seem to have additional Mongolian).
    Turkmens were not part of the Turko-Mongol tribal confederations that emerged in Central Asia following the Mongol invasion and gave rise to new ethnic groups, I think they received Mongolian admixture indirectly (long after the Mongol invasion) from Kazakhs, Uzbeks and Karakalpaks (Turkmens used to have a lot of foreign wives, as noted by various travellers). They can be modeled as a mix of medieval Turkic (ie. Karakhanid), Iranic and Mongolian on nMonte. Have you tried modeling Central Asian Turkic populations with Turk_Medieval (Gokturk period) samples? They don't seem to be a good proxy though.
    Last edited by Alkaevli; 12-19-2018 at 05:26 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alkaevli View Post
    Turkmens were not part of the Turko-Mongol tribal confederations that emerged in Central Asia following the Mongol invasion and gave rise to new ethnic groups, I think they received Mongolian admixture indirectly (long after the Mongol invasion) from Kazakhs, Uzbeks and Karakalpaks (Turkmens used to have a lot of foreign wives, as noted by various travellers).
    100% agree.

    They can be modeled as a mix of medieval Turkic (ie. Karakhanid), Iranic and Mongolian on nMonte. Have you tried modeling Central Asian Turkic populations with Turk_Medieval (Gokturk period) samples? They don't seem to be a good proxy though.
    Code:
    	Model	Sample	Details	Fit	Map	Hasanlu IA	Mongola	Sarazm Eneolithic	Sintashta MLBA	Turk Medieval	West Siberia N
    1	Hasanlu_IA +Mongola +Sarazm_Eneolithic +Sintashta_MLBA +Turk_Medieval +West_Siberia_N	Altaian:Average		5.1746	Open Map	0	35	0	0	65	0
    2	Hasanlu_IA +Mongola +Sarazm_Eneolithic +Sintashta_MLBA +Turk_Medieval +West_Siberia_N	Kazakh:Average		3.0171	Open Map	1.67	25	0	0.83	72.5	0
    3	Hasanlu_IA +Mongola +Sarazm_Eneolithic +Sintashta_MLBA +Turk_Medieval +West_Siberia_N	Kyrgyz:Average		3.3222	Open Map	0.83	37.5	1.67	0	60	0
    4	Hasanlu_IA +Mongola +Sarazm_Eneolithic +Sintashta_MLBA +Turk_Medieval +West_Siberia_N	Turkmen:Average		2.4666	Open Map	20.83	8.33	5	0.83	65	0
    5	Hasanlu_IA +Mongola +Sarazm_Eneolithic +Sintashta_MLBA +Turk_Medieval +West_Siberia_N	Uygur:Average		1.9101	Open Map	3.33	29.17	11.67	0.83	55	0
    6	Hasanlu_IA +Mongola +Sarazm_Eneolithic +Sintashta_MLBA +Turk_Medieval +West_Siberia_N	Uzbek:Average		2.0671	Open Map	8.33	20.83	13.33	6.67	50.83	0
    Compared with:

    Code:
    	Model	Sample	Details	Fit	Map	Hasanlu IA	Karakhanid	Mongola	Sarazm Eneolithic	Sintashta MLBA	West Siberia N
    1	Hasanlu_IA +Karakhanid +Mongola +Sarazm_Eneolithic +Sintashta_MLBA +West_Siberia_N	Altaian:Average		6.4727	Open Map	0	56.67	39.17	0	0	4.17
    2	Hasanlu_IA +Karakhanid +Mongola +Sarazm_Eneolithic +Sintashta_MLBA +West_Siberia_N	Kazakh:Average		2.7494	Open Map	0	78.33	17.5	0	4.17	0
    3	Hasanlu_IA +Karakhanid +Mongola +Sarazm_Eneolithic +Sintashta_MLBA +West_Siberia_N	Kyrgyz:Average		2.8353	Open Map	0	70.83	29.17	0	0	0
    4	Hasanlu_IA +Karakhanid +Mongola +Sarazm_Eneolithic +Sintashta_MLBA +West_Siberia_N	Turkmen:Average		1.94	Open Map	27.5	58.33	0.83	3.33	10	0
    5	Hasanlu_IA +Karakhanid +Mongola +Sarazm_Eneolithic +Sintashta_MLBA +West_Siberia_N	Uygur:Average		2.0177	Open Map	5.83	41.67	27.5	10.83	14.17	0
    6	Hasanlu_IA +Karakhanid +Mongola +Sarazm_Eneolithic +Sintashta_MLBA +West_Siberia_N	Uzbek:Average		2.0183	Open Map	9.17	46.67	15.83	12.5	15.83	0
    There's a cryptic ancestral contribution to the Gokturks that's seemingly absent (or reduced) in the Karakhanids, which persists in modern Altaians. That's why the fits aren't particularly stellar. Everyone else bar the Altaians takes the Karakhanids over the Gokturks (which is in line with history - while the ancestors of the Karakhanids were former denizens of the Gokturk empire, their area was broad, and there's clear heterogeneity in the East-Central Asian steppe at that time).

    I currently don't have a clear explanation regarding what the cryptic ancestry common to the Gokturk samples and modern Altaians is precisely. It clearly isn't surplus WSHG. In the South Asian section, I've found possible evidence of a "MSHG" component between the Tagar, Kangju, SGPT and Altaian_IA samples... Perhaps it's this?

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    East Eurasian ancestry in Turkic peoples is similar to East African ancestry in Afro-Asiatic peoples it seems.

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    I hope you didn't include the 'Ancestral Altaic' in the total percentage. It is not EE, 'cause even Western Europeans get like 3-4% or so. But wait, there was a spreadsheet based on Dodecad K12b, wasn't there? Can someone please give me a link to it?

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    There is over a dozen of actual Bashkir GM kits and the average would be certainly more than 33%, actually around 40%. Some were over 40% mongoloid. I don't know though if there are regional differences among the Bashkirs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alkaevli View Post
    Turkmens were not part of the Turko-Mongol tribal confederations that emerged in Central Asia following the Mongol invasion and gave rise to new ethnic groups
    Where did Turkmens emerge?It's known for a fact from written sources and archaeological evidence territories of present day Uzbekistan (Transoxiana) and Turkmenistan were settled by Iranic speaking people. Turkic migrated west from Altai regions - just to the east of eastern Kazakhstan. I'd eastern eurasian admixture in Turkmens are from their distant ancestors, while it was popular to marry Persian women among Turkmens. Turkmens also regularly raided Persia.

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    The earliest source states Oguz tribes settle in Zhetysu (seven rivers) region with capital Guzia (or old Guzia). This is modern day Almaty region in south-eastern Kazakhstan. Approximately here. But also includes northern Chu valley of Kyrygyzstan
     


    Oguz tribes were pushed west by other Turkic tribes to Syr Darya river and Aral sea in 9-10th centuries where they established a new capital Yankigent (or new Guzia) in what's today south-western Kazakhstan near Syr Darya river.

    IMO that's the source of east eurasian admixture in Turkmens.

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