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Thread: A question about the admixture from northwestern Europe

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    A question about the admixture from northwestern Europe

    I have seen, in some Gedmatch calculators, that Europe is said to be made up of two parts: South-West and North-East and North-West Europe are a mixture of the two. However, if you draw a line from South-West (Basque) to North-East (Estonians), there are still a few groups above this line, so Northwest Europeans need to have their own component and not just a mix of Southwest and Northeast .

    see: https://i.imgur.com/YSfs1RQ.png

    So is Northwest Europe something uniquely or just a mix of Southwest and Northeast ????

    is it possible that the inhabitants of Northeast and Northwest Europe come from different groups of hunters-gathers, which explains the difference?

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    From what I remember from admixture calculators being created back in the day, when creating a low K calculator "unsupervised" that had worldwide coverage, for Europe there basically were those two natural components produced. A component that was at its maximum in a NW European didn't form on it's own. So, I think those admixture calculators tended to be able to model Europeans with a north/south mixture and usually, maybe, a west Asian component, too. Then, some of the "edges" would contribute to the mix, like North African in Iberia, siberian in Finland & Russia, etc. Some of the calculators were created "supervised" and a NW European component could be forced, but it didn't happen on its own. I hope I didn't butcher that explanation too badly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by randwulf View Post
    From what I remember from admixture calculators being created back in the day, when creating a low K calculator "unsupervised" that had worldwide coverage, for Europe there basically were those two natural components produced. A component that was at its maximum in a NW European didn't form on it's own. So, I think those admixture calculators tended to be able to model Europeans with a north/south mixture and usually, maybe, a west Asian component, too. Then, some of the "edges" would contribute to the mix, like North African in Iberia, siberian in Finland & Russia, etc. Some of the calculators were created "supervised" and a NW European component could be forced, but it didn't happen on its own. I hope I didn't butcher that explanation too badly.
    Thank you, but I don't think that's the whole story.

    Perhaps for the low K calculators, yes, but really low K calculators would also create one component that covers Europe and the Middle East.

    I suspect that the NW euro is from the WHG and the NE euro is from the EHG.

    Target: Irish
    Distance: 4.1938% / 0.04193836
    54.4 Basque_Spanish
    45.6 Estonian


    Basques are the westernmost group in Europe, Estonians - the northernmost.

    The Irish don't well fit Basque and Estonians mix.

    The Euro NW component is probably less pronounced than the Euro SW or NE component, but it does exist.

    Another possibility is that NW is really a mix of SW and NE, but the Basques have been shifted south of their original location by North African or MENA and the Estonians have been shifted east by some Siberian admixture, but that doesn't seem likely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cracow View Post
    Thank you, but I don't think that's the whole story.

    Perhaps for the low K calculators, yes, but really low K calculators would also create one component that covers Europe and the Middle East.

    I suspect that the NW euro is from the WHG and the NE euro is from the EHG.

    Target: Irish
    Distance: 4.1938% / 0.04193836
    54.4 Basque_Spanish
    45.6 Estonian


    Basques are the westernmost group in Europe, Estonians - the northernmost.

    The Irish don't well fit Basque and Estonians mix.

    The Euro NW component is probably less pronounced than the Euro SW or NE component, but it does exist.

    Another possibility is that NW is really a mix of SW and NE, but the Basques have been shifted south of their original location by North African or MENA and the Estonians have been shifted east by some Siberian admixture, but that doesn't seem likely.
    I am talking K7 to K13 or k14 type calculators. Which backstory about which specific calculator do you mean? I am giving you what I remember, but the information is listed in Gedmatch for most of them or you may be able to read on some web post for others. Your objection seems to be based on the way you are thinking about the problem, not what actually happens when an unsupervised admixture calculator is created. The results are what they are. The author has control over the input and the "K" level they accept for the finished product, but not the components that result unless they choose to do something to force it. I recommend reading more before just saying it ought to happen this way or that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by randwulf View Post
    I am talking K7 to K13 or k14 type calculators. Which backstory about which specific calculator do you mean? I am giving you what I remember, but the information is listed in Gedmatch for most of them or you may be able to read on some web post for others. Your objection seems to be based on the way you are thinking about the problem, not what actually happens when an unsupervised admixture calculator is created. The results are what they are. The author has control over the input and the "K" level they accept for the finished product, but not the components that result unless they choose to do something to force it. I recommend reading more before just saying it ought to happen this way or that way.

    Sorry if I misunderstood or hard to understand, English is hard for me please. I not am trying to be difficult here.

    The Eurogenes K15 is the one from which the image is taken from which I attached in my first post, and in the G25 Vahaduo you will be a bad fit if you try to model Northwest Europeans like Irish or Scots using only Basque (westernmost European group) and Estonians (the northernmost European group).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cracow View Post
    I suspect that the NW euro is from the WHG and the NE euro is from the EHG.
    Nope, this is an internet meme spread around by stupid people.

    NW and NE Europeans actually have very similar ratios of WHG and EHG. There's minor Siberian ancestry in far Eastern, Northern and Northeastern Europe, but even this isn't the major factor.

    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/...n-present.html

    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/...rtions-in.html

    The differences you're asking about are largely due to recent, relatively rapid, genetic drift.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_drift

    Some groups are more drifted than others, like Balto-Slavs are more drifted than Germanics, but all populations show some recent drift, and it all adds up in almost all analyses to some degree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Nope, this is an internet meme spread around by stupid people.

    NW and NE Europeans actually have very similar ratios of WHG and EHG. There's minor Siberian ancestry in far Eastern, Northern and Northeastern Europe, but even this isn't the major factor.

    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/...n-present.html

    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/...rtions-in.html

    The differences you're asking about are largely due to recent, relatively rapid, genetic drift.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_drift

    Some groups are more drifted than others, like Balto-Slavs are more drifted than Germanics, but all populations show some recent drift, and it all adds up in almost all analyses to some degree.
    Thank you

    One more question is why then the euro in NE gets so much more EHG on Vahaduo?

    Anatolia_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
    WHG,0.1246365,0.116278,0.184789,0.189279,0.1546445 ,0.0464355,0.0131605,0.0372675,0.0890705,0.017768,-0.0153455,-0.015811,0.0159065,-0.0030275,0.053338,0.0582065,0.00502,0.016343,-0.0093015,0.055589,0.0944585,0.0111905,-0.049607,-0.160866,0.0170045
    Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,0.1255849,0.089028,0.0426986,0. 1153479,-0.0287232,0.0450564,0.0036033,-0.0025642,-0.0559032,-0.0728943,0.0018222,3.32e-05,-0.0026924,-0.0233041,0.0366141,0.0157633,-0.0012316,-0.0017879,-0.0038408,0.0137704,-0.0031749,0.0007557,0.0110649,0.0186102,-0.004537
    Baltic_LVA_HG,0.1292603,0.1004104,0.1802636,0.1972 329,0.1064236,0.0560919,0.0083574,0.0207106,0.0524 476,-0.0261394,-0.0046788,-0.0181151,0.0281434,-0.0053759,0.0355759,0.0480141,0.003072,0.0040856,-0.0059236,0.042325,0.0613526,0.0130531,-0.0262979,-0.1110549,0.0095949


    Target: Polish
    Distance: 5.4164% / 0.05416387
    42.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    35.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    22.6 Baltic_LVA_HG

    Target: Estonian
    Distance: 6.5194% / 0.06519373
    45.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    28.8 Baltic_LVA_HG
    26.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N

    Target: Scottish
    Distance: 4.7207% / 0.04720679
    45.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    38.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    10.4 Baltic_LVA_HG
    6.0 WHG

    Target: Irish
    Distance: 4.9365% / 0.04936454
    48.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    36.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    10.8 WHG
    4.0 Baltic_LVA_HG

    CLEAR OUTPUT
    CYCLES - 1XADD DIST COL - NOPRINT ZEROES - NOAGGREGATE - YESADD BAR CHART - MODE 1
    IrishScottishEstonianPolish

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cracow View Post
    Thank you

    One more question is why then the euro in NE gets so much more EHG on Vahaduo?

    Anatolia_Barcin_N,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
    WHG,0.1246365,0.116278,0.184789,0.189279,0.1546445 ,0.0464355,0.0131605,0.0372675,0.0890705,0.017768,-0.0153455,-0.015811,0.0159065,-0.0030275,0.053338,0.0582065,0.00502,0.016343,-0.0093015,0.055589,0.0944585,0.0111905,-0.049607,-0.160866,0.0170045
    Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,0.1255849,0.089028,0.0426986,0. 1153479,-0.0287232,0.0450564,0.0036033,-0.0025642,-0.0559032,-0.0728943,0.0018222,3.32e-05,-0.0026924,-0.0233041,0.0366141,0.0157633,-0.0012316,-0.0017879,-0.0038408,0.0137704,-0.0031749,0.0007557,0.0110649,0.0186102,-0.004537
    Baltic_LVA_HG,0.1292603,0.1004104,0.1802636,0.1972 329,0.1064236,0.0560919,0.0083574,0.0207106,0.0524 476,-0.0261394,-0.0046788,-0.0181151,0.0281434,-0.0053759,0.0355759,0.0480141,0.003072,0.0040856,-0.0059236,0.042325,0.0613526,0.0130531,-0.0262979,-0.1110549,0.0095949


    Target: Polish
    Distance: 5.4164% / 0.05416387
    42.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    35.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    22.6 Baltic_LVA_HG

    Target: Estonian
    Distance: 6.5194% / 0.06519373
    45.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    28.8 Baltic_LVA_HG
    26.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N

    Target: Scottish
    Distance: 4.7207% / 0.04720679
    45.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    38.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    10.4 Baltic_LVA_HG
    6.0 WHG

    Target: Irish
    Distance: 4.9365% / 0.04936454
    48.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    36.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    10.8 WHG
    4.0 Baltic_LVA_HG

    CLEAR OUTPUT
    CYCLES - 1XADD DIST COL - NOPRINT ZEROES - NOAGGREGATE - YESADD BAR CHART - MODE 1
    IrishScottishEstonianPolish
    Baltic_LVA_HG isn't EHG. It's overwhelmingly WHG. You can have a look here.

    https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#WestEurasia

    Apart from that, the distances in your models are fairly high, which means that the sources you're using aren't perfect.

    The closer you get to the correct sources, the more accurate will be your results, and the ancestry proportions will shift.
    Last edited by Generalissimo; 10-11-2020 at 03:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Baltic_LVA_HG isn't EHG. It's overwhelmingly WHG. You can have a look here.

    https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#WestEurasia

    Apart from that, the distances in your models are fairly high, which means that the sources you're using aren't perfect.

    The closer you get to the correct sources, the more accurate will be your results, and the ancestry proportions will shift.
    Thus, the Balto-Slavs must come from the Baltic HG, and the WHG descends too the Celts and Germans.

    I tried to read the blog and the comments it contained, but found them difficult to understand.


    Moreover, NW Europe and NE Europe cannot simply be drift versions of each other when looking at the distribution of haplogroups.
    The haplogroups of Lithuania and Ireland are very different, which would only make cents to me if they had different origins.
    Last edited by Cracow; 10-11-2020 at 06:00 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cracow View Post
    Thus, the Balto-Slavs must come from the Baltic HG, and the WHG descends too the Celts and Germans.
    Not really.

    Like I said, the statistical fits in your models are rather poor, and one of the reasons for this is the wrong type of HG reference.

    The HG in NW and NE Europe is more or less the same, except that NW Euros have somewhat more HG ancestry from NW Europe.

    Moreover, NW Europe and NE Europe cannot simply be drift versions of each other when looking at the distribution of haplogroups.
    The haplogroups of Lithuania and Ireland are very different, which would only make cents to me if they had different origins.
    The main haplogroups in modern Europeans aren't from local HG populations.

    For instance, Balts didn't get their R1a or N1c from Baltic HGs. They got their R1a from the steppe and the N1c via a massive founder effect from Uralians.

    So yeah, haplogroups are often much more susceptible to founder effects and drift than autosomal DNA, and both NW and NE Euros got their R1a and R1b from the same place, which was the steppe.

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