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Thread: Map of Ancient P58 samples

  1. #1
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    Map of Ancient P58 samples

    Just added VIL007: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1yO...-G&usp=sharing

    I'll update it as more results come in.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  3. #2
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    Thanks Agamemnon but the number of ancient P58-samples so far is deplorable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shamash View Post
    Thanks Agamemnon but the number of ancient P58-samples so far is deplorable.
    Better than nothing, I'd say

    But yes, the sample count (11 individuals) is frustratingly small... That being said, we should expect this to increase quite substantially as more ancient data from the Middle East and the Mediterranean is analysed. Personally, I don't think we'll have to wait too long for that, it's even possible that we'll have reached a hundred individuals by the end of this decade.

    The problem as always is that, with very few exceptions, the ancient populations that are bound to have carried high amounts of P58 lineages came from areas that are now unstable at best (if not outright war zones). The fact that we already have a dozen or so samples is very much amazing and encouraging, especially considering the general lack of attention the Middle East, North Africa and the Mediterranean have received in terms of ancient sampling until very recently.

    I would certainly like to see more ancient samples from the Fertile Crescent dating back to the Pottery Neolithic, I strongly suspect this was a crucial period in the lineage's history.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 02-26-2020 at 09:27 PM.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    The samples from Skourtianoti et al. have been added to the map because of the half-decent Y-SNP calls.

    The samples from Agranat-Tamir et al. and Haber et al. will be added once we get hold of the BAM files and the analysis is refined. The samples I've just added will also be updated accordingly.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    The samples from Skourtianoti et al. have been added to the map because of the half-decent Y-SNP calls.

    The samples from Agranat-Tamir et al. and Haber et al. will be added once we get hold of the BAM files and the analysis is refined. The samples I've just added will also be updated accordingly.
    I can't wait for the BAM files to be checked for SNPs! Last but not least J1 takes its place! Only Mesopotamia is still terra incognita but I am quite confident that the Caucasus/Zagros Chalcolithic component will eventually turn out Mesopotamian.
    Last edited by Shamash; 05-30-2020 at 01:36 PM.

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  11. #6
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    Haber et al. samples added. All under YSC76 (hope you're reading this, Ilgar)!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shamash View Post
    I can't wait for the BAM files to be checked for SNPs! Last but not least J1 takes its place! Only Mesopotamia is still terra incognita but I am quite confident that the Caucasus/Zagros Chalcolithic component will eventually turn out Mesopotamian.
    I think we'll be seeing Mesopotamian data soon enough, so do not despair.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    I just saw a very rare basal offshoot of j1-p58 who is just upstream of me is from Iraq ����

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  15. #8
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    Agamemnon, there are also the following J1s from aDNA:

    1. Fregel et al. 2009 Demographic history of Canary Islands male gene-pool: replacement of native lineages by European

    Tenerife (2210 ± 60 to 1720 ± 60 BP),

    Gomera (1743 ± 40 to 1493 ± 40 BP),

    Hierro (1740 ± 50 to 970 ± 50 BP)

    Gran Canaria (1410 ± 60 to 750 ± 60 BP)

    Seem to be the first J1s found among ancient DNA samples.

    2. Wang et al. 2018 The genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus

    MK5008.B0101 Marinskaya 5 Late Maykop (3364-3107 calBCE)

    Here are his SNP calls.

    Five positive SNP calls of J1 level:

    J1 YSC0001287/CTS7598/PF4743+
    J1 PF4740/M497+
    J1 S13025/FGC3685+
    J1 CTS3953/PF4711+
    J1 CTS7412/PF4742+

    Negative or no calls for SNPs downstream from J1 level including P58 negative and L862 negative.
    Last edited by Yaroslav; 06-07-2020 at 01:38 AM.

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  17. #9
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    Thanks for that Yaroslav, MK5008.B0101 has been added.

    I am well aware of the Guanche samples from Fregel et al. (and have been for a long time), not sure I want to include them as they're a bit all over the place. Adding them either way.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 06-07-2020 at 02:42 PM.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I am well aware of the Guanche samples from Fregel et al. (and have been for a long time)
    They seem to be the first J1s found in ancient DNA

    It's a pity there was not deeper SNP testing. It would be interesting to know what branch could they belong to and the way they inherited it. Their time predates the Arab expansion so they could be either from some very old prehistoric branch or perhaps got their J1 from the Phoenicians as a variant.

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