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Thread: U152 and Ligures - Capocasa et al. (2014)

  1. #1
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    U152 and Ligures - Capocasa et al. (2014)

    This paper is due out this year, and while not specifically about U152, it has an interesting U152 reference (highlighted in the text). Of course U152 STRs in L2, Z36 and Z192 look like typical WAMH (Z56 not so much). The only sample in the FTDNA project in the "Liguri Apuani" homeland is Z36+ (Paolini), so one would expect that the displaced U152 of Benevento would also be Z36. The only sample from Benevento (Goglia) has not been tested further than U152.

    Capocasa et al. (2014) Linguistic, geographic and genetic isolation: a collaborative study of Italian populations (ahead of print)
    http://www.isita-org.com/jass/Conten...a/Capocasa.pdf

    The hypothesis of a genetic legacy between Ligures Apuani and present Apuan and Samnite isolates (Ligures Legacy Model, LLM) was tested by the RU of the University of Pisa through the genetic characterization of uni-linear markers in a sample of unrelated donors from the communities of Vagli (Province of Lucca) and Circello (Province of Benevento) selected according to founder surnames. Vagli is located in the core of the area which has many archeological records linked to Ligures Apuani. Its elder inhabitants still speak a language characterized by a number of linguistic relicts (Ambrosi, 1956; Guazzelli, 2001). Circello lays in close proximity to the remains of Macchia, the town in the Samnium around which the deported Ligures (L. Baebiani) were forced to settle in 180 BC (Patterson, 2009).

    A slight reduction of HD at both mtDNA and Y Chromosome has been observed for Vagli (0.948 and 0.984) and Circello (0.960 and 0.975) relative to the neighbouring populations of Piana di Lucca (0.983 and 0.999) and Benevento (0.989 and 1.000). As expected for communities of Indo-European ancestry, usually practicing prevalence of female vs male mobility (patrilocal), genetic distances based on mtDNA are weaker discriminators than distances based on MSY haplotypes (see Supplementary Tab. S1). Preliminary comparative assessments of MSY profiles suggest that the diversity of Apuans might be due to an excess of R-U152 haplotypes, whose diffusion in Italy is thought to coincide with the diffusion of Ligures cultural features in the Middle-Late Bronze Age (Bertoncini et al., 2012).

    As a whole, the two communities under study (Vagli and Circello) showed a genetic pattern which is compatible with a long history of isolation but also with quite diverging microevolutionary histories after contacts implied by the LLM. As a more direct test of a genetic continuum with Ligures tribes (Fig. 4), we assessed whether an enrichment of matches compatible with the Titus Livius deportation hypothesis is detectable when comparing any MSY haplotype of the local population (Vagli) with haplotypes of both, the putative displaced (Circello) and the open Samnite population (Benevento). The enrichment of LLM-compatible matches in the Vagli-Circello curve totaled about 80% and was extremely statistically significant (Fisher exact test, p<0.0001).

    The hypothesis of direct descent of the resident males in the Apuan and in the Circello area from members of Ligures tribes, who escaped deportation, cannot be ruled out. Further data from wider samples and haplogroup diagnostic markers, as well as more extensive simulation analyses will help achieve more robust inferences. Nonetheless, our case study shows that even mild geographical and cultural isolation may lead to the preservation of a long genetic thread connecting present populations to ancient layers of pre-Roman Italy. As a corollary, it suggests that many isolated Italian communities other than Northern Apennine ones may escape simplistic classification schemes (i.e. linguistic vs geographic isolate), owing to the gradual fringing and recent oblivion of a common ancient cultural identity. Finally, our study highlights the usefulness of accurate non random genetic samplings to uncover genetic layers obscured by recent reshufflings within and among human populations.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 01-31-2014 at 08:44 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  3. #2
    I'll read (and study) the paper, but it seems to me that they haven't released the haplotypes. What a pity. But you have an (probably) S47 in your "Italy FTDNA Project" from the Elymian zone of Western Sicily. There are theories which link Elymians to Ligurians (Erice/Lerici):

    308873 Felipe Ciaravino, b 1794 Italy R1b1a2
    13 23 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 15 9-10 10 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 16 18 17 38-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 14 8 12 25 21 13 12 11 13 11 11 14 12 33 15 9 16 11 27 26 19 12 11 13 12 12 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 12 13 24 13 10 10 19 15 20 13 24 16 13 15 25 12 23 18 10 14 16 9 12 11

  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rathna View Post
    I'll read (and study) the paper, but it seems to me that they haven't released the haplotypes. What a pity. But you have an (probably) S47 in your "Italy FTDNA Project" from the Elymian zone of Western Sicily. There are theories which link Elymians to Ligurians (Erice/Lerici):

    308873 Felipe Ciaravino, b 1794 Italy R1b1a2
    13 23 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 15 9-10 10 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 16 18 17 38-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 14 8 12 25 21 13 12 11 13 11 11 14 12 33 15 9 16 11 27 26 19 12 11 13 12 12 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 12 13 24 13 10 10 19 15 20 13 24 16 13 15 25 12 23 18 10 14 16 9 12 11
    This was pre-print and they mentioned both STRs and supplementary files, so I'm hopeful they will be released.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  6. #4
    But there always is something that doesn't fit in these studies:
    1) the previous papers already published about the Alpine populations had many wrong haplotypes (for instance a G passed off for R etc.) that I didn't take them in any consideration (see Coia et al., etc.)
    2) they use a known argument to explain the difference between the Y and the mt haplogroups: that the Y is due to immigration whereas the mt would belong to the women of the previous populations. This has been used to explain why we have in Western Europe above all hg. R whereas the mt are very differentiated etc.
    But I heard the same Francalacci (who is amongst the authors of the paper) to give the right explication: those women might have only a few children whereas a chieftain may have many from different women. This explains also the ratio of a few Y and many mt in Arabia etc.
    3) You certainly remember when I was threatened of a banishment on Worldfamilies when I said that Tofanelli of Pisa University would have discovered a "Ligurian" SNP and this was a secret. Now the paper has been published and I am curious to know this SNP, probably nothing more than what we know from the PF SNP, the Big Y and the Full Y ones.

    I let you note that I have 13 new SNP from my Chromo2, which will probably be able to give us a phylogeny of R-Z2110* (mine).

  7. #5
    To the previous post I could add (always to explain Western European Y) that it isn't said that the chieftains were R and the other men other haplogroups: they could be R them too. This of course could have amongst the consequences that R was old and dominant. It is useless you ask me where it was, I could say: in the "Refugium South of the Alps".
    Last edited by Rathna; 02-02-2014 at 08:43 AM.

  8. #6
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    IMO, the paper is just a summary of the other papers from 2013 and beyond, its a waste of time.

    I agree with rathna that they passed of G for R..........I for G and some others .............although the mtdna was very good...IIRC lots of K1 and U5 and U4, and stated these are original alpine markers while the H was basically never introduced ( maybe H5 was ........to hot to think today)

    European = 99.2%............Central Asian = 0.8% .............Yfull - 1460BC
    Father's Mtdna .........T2b17
    Grandfather's Mtdna .......T1a1e
    Sons Mtdna .......K1a4
    Maternal Grandfather paternal......I1d-P109...CTS6009
    Wife's Ydna .....R1a-Z282

    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS54+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, Y70078+ )

    The main negatives = ( M193-, P322-, P327-, Pages11- , L25- , CTS1848- )

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  10. #7
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    Richard, I would counsel caution concerning Z36 and the Garfagnana.

    Boattini's recent study had a R1b-L2 predominance in his La Spezia/Massa sample which covers most of the ancient Apuan Ligurian territory.

    Capocasa's new study takes Vagli as his Garfagnana sample. Vagli is only just inside Lucca province and is close to the Massa provincial border.

    Vagli seems to come close to North East Italy (predominantly R1b-L2) in Capocasa's scaling plots.
    Last edited by Cascio; 02-02-2014 at 09:08 AM.

  11. #8
    I have already remembered the people I tested in my zone: Pisa Province close to the ancient Ligurian limits Northwards Arno river, but people migrated and we don't know where their ancestors lived 1000 or 2000 years ago:
    1) I (H1614/KV7Y2), my son and my far relative Giancarlo Tognoni (H1621): R-Z2110* (on 1300 my ancestors lived in Castelfiorentino, Florence Province)
    2) My acquired cousin Giorgio Tognarelli (211020): R-L23+/L277-/L584- (from 23andMe), The origins are probably from Lunigiana (full Ligurian places) with links with Orsini Luciani (Corsica) and Guastalli, whose surname brings his origin beyond the Apennine (Guastalla), always in Ligurian/Etruscan places
    3) Fabrizio Federighi (MHK97): R-M269* (he is waiting for his Geno 2.0), surname in Pisa and Pistoia Provinces
    4) Alberto Malvolti (9GBPS): R- (probably) U152, perhaps Z56 (?),tested by SMGF, surname in Florence and Parma Provinces
    5) Ivano Coltelli (303065): R-M269 (perhaps U152), but only 12 markers, Pisa Province
    We have on 23andMe:
    6) Alessandro Baldasseroni: R-U152*, from Altopascio, Lucca Province, limits of ancient Sextum Lake
    7) Mariani (an Italian American: Jill Temple's brother), close to me by my maternal line: R-U152*, Colle di Compito, Lucca Province, limits of ancient Sextum Lake.

    There are so far 100% hg. R.
    Last edited by Rathna; 02-02-2014 at 10:09 AM.

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  13. #9
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    Also there is the fact that Bergamask, Brescian and Piedmontese artisans, especially iron workers, settled in the Garfagnana especially between the 13th and 16th centuries.
    Some could have brought Z36 there.

  14. #10
    Of course other persons linked to me who come probably from my zone have also other haplogroups. Unfortunately they don't answer my letters and I am not able to say anything about their origin:

    3rd to 5th Cousin: 0.43% shared, 3 segments United States Italy Southern Europe Bonechi Frangioni Taliani T2/G2a

    3rd to 6th Cousin: 0.43% shared, 1 segments Italy Pisa Southern Europe H5a / I1*

    Ruggero Gabbrielli Male, b. 1975 4th to Distant Cousin 0.10% shared, 1 segment Italy Firenze, Italy Empoli, Italy San Miniato, Italy Cava dei Tirreni, Italy Southern Europe Gabbrielli Masullo Bianchi 5 more Ruggero Gabbrielli H10a1/G2a [but the male line seems just that one out of four not from Tuscany]
    etc.
    Last edited by Rathna; 02-02-2014 at 10:51 AM.

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