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Thread: South Asia Y-DNA Distribution

  1. #1
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    South Asia Y-DNA Distribution

    I thought I'd start a discussion to mirror the Assyrian Y-DNA Distribution on South Asia. Thanks Humanist for the Idea

    I gathered the data from a link that Parasar had included in on Zack's Harappa DNA Project

    South_Asia_Y_DNA_DISTRIBUTION.jpg

    I was really surprised at how high J2 was in South Asia and R2 was lower. I was actually expecting the opposite. Why do you guys think this would have happened. Considering R2 may have been first into South Asia before J2.


    South_Asia_Y_DNA_DISTRIBUTION_02.jpg
    Last edited by Mehrdad; 01-31-2014 at 07:44 PM.

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  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrdad View Post
    I thought I'd start a discussion to mirror the Assyrian Y-DNA Distribution on South Asia. Thanks Humanist for the Idea
    Thanks for creating the thread. Would also love to see the same for mtDNA data.

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  5. #3
    A few thoughts.

    -J2 doesn't seem all that high given we know some parts of South Asia have pretty high frequencies of J2b.
    -Were these charts created before the discovery of H3 because most South Asian F ended up being H2/H3. But then again I would be surprised to see a frequency of H3 at such a high level. The F here likely represents a mixture of actual F, H3, G and J imo.
    -R*? Probably R2 imo.
    -More C1b1 than I would have thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrdad View Post
    I was really surprised at how high J2 was in South Asia and R2 was lower. I was actually expecting the opposite. Why do you guys think this would have happened. Considering R2 may have been first into South Asia before J2.
    The better question is why do we consider R2a to be an earlier arrival before J2 to South Asia? Are we talking based on STR calculations? If so, take them with a grain of salt. I think the spread of R2 indicates that it's a younger lineage than its older brother R1, and younger by a lot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomasso29 View Post
    The better question is why do we consider R2a to be an earlier arrival before J2 to South Asia? Are we talking based on STR calculations? If so, take them with a grain of salt. I think the spread of R2 indicates that it's a younger lineage than its older brother R1, and younger by a lot.
    Interesting, you're correct, I was referring to STR's. So when you said younger a lot, by how many years or millenia are we talking about here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrdad View Post
    Interesting, you're correct, I was referring to STR's. So when you said younger a lot, by how many years or millenia are we talking about here?
    I don't think there's an answer to that, it's all speculations based on personal opinion on how the current findings and distributions are. STR calculations get abused in these studies and people end up taking them too serious in their lineage timelines. We have to remind that STR mutations are random and can happen at any moment. Yes it's true that some markers probably mutate faster than others and you can possibly assume a mutation rate, but at the end of the day, it's still random.

    A good example of this is if you take some of the older studies done on R2-M124 you would believe that Southeast India has the highest diversity which at one point was suggested to be an origin point. Well recently through FTDNA we were able to find the most useful SNP under R2-M124 in L295 (R2a1). All the Indian samples from that Southeast India that tested for this SNP in the project came back positive.

    Anyways, I don't want to drift away from the subject, but my main point is we have to take caution when estimating timelines. I believe these calculations and estimates are more proper for recent ancestry and if you want to determine your connection to close matches. Other than that, they're just a grain of salt.

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  12. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomasso29 View Post
    The better question is why do we consider R2a to be an earlier arrival before J2 to South Asia? Are we talking based on STR calculations? If so, take them with a grain of salt. I think the spread of R2 indicates that it's a younger lineage than its older brother R1, and younger by a lot.
    Well you are in disagreement with most people there. R2 likely spread south during the Paleolithic/Mesolithic because it was unlikely it was hanging out in the Central Asian desserts and unlikely it took a route to Europe or the South Caspian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    Well you are in disagreement with most people there.
    In the mid-2000's, one Vincent Vizachero (vineviz) defied the popular stance on DNA-Forums when it became clear that Y-DNA R1b's genetic pattern did not support a "Cro Magnon" era origin in the Iberian refugium. He ended up being correct a thousand times over on that.

    We should all be mindful of the above, perfectly exemplifying the logical fallacy of argumentam ad populum. A majority view is not necessarily the right one. Even on this forum.

    R2 likely spread south during the Paleolithic/Mesolithic because it was unlikely it was hanging out in the Central Asian desserts and unlikely it took a route to Europe or the South Caspian.
    This may well be correct, but Tomasso's point was centred around primary genetic evidence. If it is to be challenged, contrary primary genetic evidence is needed. Prehistoric geography is useful in confirming postulated movements but it certainly isn't contrary evidence.

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  15. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    In the mid-2000's, one Vincent Vizachero (vineviz) defied the popular stance on DNA-Forums when it became clear that Y-DNA R1b's genetic pattern did not support a "Cro Magnon" era origin in the Iberian refugium. He ended up being correct a thousand times over on that.

    We should all be mindful of the above, perfectly exemplifying the logical fallacy of argumentam ad populum. A majority view is not necessarily the right one. Even on this forum.



    This may well be correct, but Tomasso's point was centred around primary genetic evidence. If it is to be challenged, contrary primary genetic evidence is needed. Prehistoric geography is useful in confirming postulated movements but it certainly isn't contrary evidence.
    All I saw in his posts were his opinions and a bit of information on SE India. Which hardly proves that R2a doesn't have an ancient presence in the rest of South Asia. Nor do most of the calculated dates agree with R2 being much younger than R1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by newtoboard View Post
    All I saw in his posts were his opinions and a bit of information on SE India. Which hardly proves that R2a doesn't have an ancient presence in the rest of South Asia. Nor do most of the calculated dates agree with R2 being much younger than R1.
    I was referring to the SE Asian origin part in my post.

    And, why invest any esteem in the calculated dates when all the older studies based them off STR calculations, which Tomasso correctly described as being somewhat misguiding?

    The most accurate way of gauging the age of R2a-M124 right now would be through SNP's rather than STR's. No paper I'm aware of has done so.

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