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Thread: Sage Agasthya and Southern Migration

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by tipirneni View Post
    Earlier Munda like population of UP like Cheros and Bhar probably were slash and burn cultivators of the rice. Even until Mughal time (1500) there were places with these people which were all destroyed and taken over. The newer persian style wheel based agriculture was introduced in these areas using land & estates given to former soldiers.
    There indeed was a period when a lot of the region reverted back to forest and was re-introduced to cultivation.

    I think we will see farming in South Asia go back to beyond the traditional "neolithic" period - well into the Mesolithic. These would be rice farmers where rice was cultivated by broadcasting.

    What is being reported at Rakhigarhi had not changed much when the Greeks came.

    Rakhigarhi circa 2500 BC: "Indus populations were the earliest people to use complex multi-cropping strategies across both seasons, growing foods during summer (rice, millets and beans) and winter (wheat, barley and pulses), which required different watering regimes...
    The archaeologists sifted for traces of ancient grains in the remains of several Indus villages within a few kilometers of the site called Rakhigari: the most recently excavated of the Indus cities that may have maintained a population of some 40,000 ...
    and used radiocarbon dating to provide the first absolute dates for Indus multi-cropping: 2890-2630 BC for millets and winter pulses, 2580-2460 BC for horsegram, and 2430-2140 BC for rice ...
    summer crops appear to have been much more popular than the wheats of winter ... "

    Greeks: "The main crops include rice, millet, a crop called bosporum, other cereals, pulses and other food plants. There are two crop cycles per year, since rain falls in both summer and winter. At the time of summer solstice, rice, millet, bosporum and sesamum are sown. During winter, wheat is sown."

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  3. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    They are not talking aboul wild rice but cultivated rice.
    The paper referenced is from 2016: Received: 11 March 2016; Accepted: 2 June 2016; Revised: 9 June 2016
    Within it, it is mentioning the older papers for further support.
    Yes I am aware but the actual data referenced is from 2011. Also millet was more of an important rotational crop far more than rice and it becomes dominant in Ashmound. Though when the Ragi variant of millet becomes popular remains to be seen.

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  5. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    There indeed was a period when a lot of the region reverted back to forest and was re-introduced to cultivation.

    I think we will see farming in South Asia go back to beyond the traditional "neolithic" period - well into the Mesolithic. These would be rice farmers where rice was cultivated by broadcasting.

    What is being reported at Rakhigarhi had not changed much when the Greeks came.

    Rakhigarhi circa 2500 BC: "Indus populations were the earliest people to use complex multi-cropping strategies across both seasons, growing foods during summer (rice, millets and beans) and winter (wheat, barley and pulses), which required different watering regimes...
    The archaeologists sifted for traces of ancient grains in the remains of several Indus villages within a few kilometers of the site called Rakhigari: the most recently excavated of the Indus cities that may have maintained a population of some 40,000 ...
    and used radiocarbon dating to provide the first absolute dates for Indus multi-cropping: 2890-2630 BC for millets and winter pulses, 2580-2460 BC for horsegram, and 2430-2140 BC for rice ...
    summer crops appear to have been much more popular than the wheats of winter ... "

    Greeks: "The main crops include rice, millet, a crop called bosporum, other cereals, pulses and other food plants. There are two crop cycles per year, since rain falls in both summer and winter. At the time of summer solstice, rice, millet, bosporum and sesamum are sown. During winter, wheat is sown."
    The earliest evidence of rice cultivation in South Asia was found in Lahuradewa in Uttar Pradesh. Rice was cultivated there as early as 7th Millenium BC.

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  7. #154
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    Looks like the cultivation cum herding package is oldest ffrom PPNB with some inputs before Y Dryas event 11k BCE extending to 21k BC at ohlalo II in Sea of Galailee https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0167151

    That probably starting point for the settled life before that it was all HG lifestyle.

    hunter-gatherers had long been exploiting wild cereals when available without cultivation is established from finds at Ohlalo II (21 000–18 500 BC) of wild emmer (Triticum diococcoides) and barley (Hordeum spontaneum) together with several other small-seeded grasses, fruits and acorns (Kislev et al., 1992; Weiss et al., 2004). Climatic changes at the end of the Pleistocene are regarded as important for their impact on the availability of these wild progenitors and human subsistence and are the favoured component underpinning explanations for why cultivation began. Of particular importance is the Younger Dryas dry (cold) episode from approx. 11 500 to 9800 BC (Bar-Yosef, 1998, 2003; Harris, 1998; Hillman et al., 2001; Byrd, 2005). Prior to this event the climate was favourable and dense populations of hunter-gatherers (the Late Epipalaeolithic phase, 12 500–9700 BC) were settled in territories that included some possible year-round settlements. The Younger Dryas brought an end to this, with most sites being abandoned, and it is argued that a few groups may have resorted to cultivation during this period. Village populations reappeared throughout the area during the Pre-Pottery Neolithic A (PPNA) Period (9700–8700 BC), and many of them appear to have been cultivators. Finds of domesticated plants are generally widespread in the subsequent Pre-Pottery Neolithic B (PPNB; 8700–6200 BC), and it is by this period that they began to spread beyond the domestication zone into central Turkey, Cyprus, Crete and southern Greece. Domesticated animals first occur about 8200 BC at the start of the Middle PPNB (Garrard, 2000; Bar-Yosef, 2003; Colledge et al., 2004; Byrd, 2005).
    Y: H-M69 -> H-M82 -> SK1225 -> H-Z5888 -> H-Z5890 -> H-CTS8144 [CTS8144/PF1741/M5498] -> Z34531 (H1a1a4b3b1a8~)
    found 2875 BCE -> Jiroft/IVC Periphery 11459 Shahr-i-Sokte BA2
    mtDNA:U2a1a

    G25 Ancients Dist 0.79 IND_Roopkund_A 51.05 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 46.64 MAR_Iberomaurusian2.04PAK_Katelai_IA0.19 TKM_Gonur2_BA 0.08

    Lactose Persistence rs3213871 rs4988243 rs4988183 rs3769005 rs2236783
    found -> DA125, Kangju

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  9. #155
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    Latest analysis on Tel Meggido (By Agamemnon) proves that there was some distinct Asura like ancestry a more pristine strand of early [North-]West Semitic ancestry which were involved in early Canaanite settlement

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....n-Levant/page7


    I see some number of South Asians especially some Kamma, some Rajput, some Bania having this kind of ancestry that might relate to the ancient Panis & Dasyus as reported in the Rig Veda who were Varuna worshipers and wealthy merchants involved in Sea faring with Mesopotamian cities.

    To give in numbers, last time I checked the Jordan EBA samples both of them produced 37%+ on my kits when checking on 50SNP/1cM. That shows high affinity for the samples. Furthermore, both of the lineages that were found in the samples, J1-Z2324 and J2b1-M205, are closely tied to Semitic-speaking groups, seem to track the dispersal of early Semitic speakers both in terms of distribution and phylogeny and have TMRCA estimates that correlate with the break up of Proto-Semitic during the first half of the 4th millennium BCE

    The elamo-Dravidian people might have had few cities which probably acted as a refuge for these Canaanite traders who probably established these early trading colonies on the Indus Valley. This probably lasted until the climate changes during 2nd millennium when people started moving into Ganges valley/Brahmaputra valley and Narmada/Godavari valley to develop more AASI mixed later Copper age culture.
    Y: H-M69 -> H-M82 -> SK1225 -> H-Z5888 -> H-Z5890 -> H-CTS8144 [CTS8144/PF1741/M5498] -> Z34531 (H1a1a4b3b1a8~)
    found 2875 BCE -> Jiroft/IVC Periphery 11459 Shahr-i-Sokte BA2
    mtDNA:U2a1a

    G25 Ancients Dist 0.79 IND_Roopkund_A 51.05 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 46.64 MAR_Iberomaurusian2.04PAK_Katelai_IA0.19 TKM_Gonur2_BA 0.08

    Lactose Persistence rs3213871 rs4988243 rs4988183 rs3769005 rs2236783
    found -> DA125, Kangju

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  11. #156
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    Though there are few Brahmin & Yadav/Kurmi samples with high Semite like % shows up on Harappa mixed oracles, the segments might be highly fragmented due to high Gangetic era mixing post Gupta period which didn't occur as much in some of the Kamma, Bania and Rajput samples due to high sub-caste Endogamy
    Y: H-M69 -> H-M82 -> SK1225 -> H-Z5888 -> H-Z5890 -> H-CTS8144 [CTS8144/PF1741/M5498] -> Z34531 (H1a1a4b3b1a8~)
    found 2875 BCE -> Jiroft/IVC Periphery 11459 Shahr-i-Sokte BA2
    mtDNA:U2a1a

    G25 Ancients Dist 0.79 IND_Roopkund_A 51.05 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 46.64 MAR_Iberomaurusian2.04PAK_Katelai_IA0.19 TKM_Gonur2_BA 0.08

    Lactose Persistence rs3213871 rs4988243 rs4988183 rs3769005 rs2236783
    found -> DA125, Kangju

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