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Thread: Sage Agasthya and Southern Migration

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    How and with which likely ancient migration?
    The Paisachi is extinct language now. I don't see if any one did extensive research on it. But looking at the history and the presence of artifacts it seems originally in central Indian and Orissa of Chedi and Satavahana. The migrations of those era are all preserved in place names like Palli/pati/patti etc..
    https://enacademic.com/dic.nsf/enwik.../Sage_Kambhoja
    Some Jain documents say sage Kumbhoja was considered brother to sage Agasti and had hermitage in Maharashtra. it might have been the earliest instances from Chedi era when King Dristaketu had invited Kambhoja people from north to form his warrior force. The chedis were also considered to be the ancesters of Orissa kingdom of Udayagiri

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/asienman/22396343127

    The inscriptions from 200BC clearly shows presence of Kamma people who were probably mixed Kamboja/local chedis. These were one of those mixed Yadu group who moved to Andhra and mixed with Parthians & Nagas to form Pallava empire. The earlier migration might have been the Pandyan kingdom.

    V - INSCRIPTIONS IN THE SARPAGUMPHA ( to the left of the doorway) The text in Devanagari script is as under:

    L.1- कंमस हलखि

    L.2- णय च पसादो

    Translation: [The pavilion is the] gift of Kamma and Halakhina.

    Note: Most probably Halakhiṇa was the wife of Kamma. Chūlakamma - found in the inscription No.IV and Kamma of this record indicate official designations rather than the proper names. Kamma may be taken as minister of works (Karma saciva) and Cūlakamma appears to be a junior cadre of minister in the Department of works.



    VI - HARIDAS CAVE INSCRIPTION

    This inscription contains one line has been incised over one of the three entrances to the main chamber of the cave from the veranda. The text in Devanagari script is as under:

    चूलकमस पसातो कोठाजेया च

    Translation: The chamber and veranda (or side chamber) are the gift of cūlakama.
    Y: H-M69 -> H-M82 -> SK1225 -> H-Z5888 -> H-Z5890 -> H-CTS8144 [CTS8144/PF1741/M5498] -> Z34531 (H1a1a4b3b1a8~)
    found 2875 BCE -> Jiroft/IVC Periphery 11459 Shahr-i-Sokte BA2
    mtDNA:U2a1a

    G25 Ancients Dist 0.79 IND_Roopkund_A 51.05 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 46.64 MAR_Iberomaurusian2.04PAK_Katelai_IA0.19 TKM_Gonur2_BA 0.08

    Lactose Persistence rs3213871 rs4988243 rs4988183 rs3769005 rs2236783
    found -> DA125, Kangju

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by tipirneni View Post
    The Paisachi is extinct language now. I don't see if any one did extensive research on it. But looking at the history and the presence of artifacts it seems originally in central Indian and Orissa of Chedi and Satavahana. The migrations of those era are all preserved in place names like Palli/pati/patti etc..
    https://enacademic.com/dic.nsf/enwik.../Sage_Kambhoja
    Some Jain documents say sage Kumbhoja was considered brother to sage Agasti and had hermitage in Maharashtra. it might have been the earliest instances from Chedi era when King Dristaketu had invited Kambhoja people from north to form his warrior force. The chedis were also considered to be the ancesters of Orissa kingdom of Udayagiri

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/asienman/22396343127

    The inscriptions from 200BC clearly shows presence of Kamma people who were probably mixed Kamboja/local chedis. These were one of those mixed Yadu group who moved to Andhra and mixed with Parthians & Nagas to form Pallava empire. The earlier migration might have been the Pandyan kingdom.

    V - INSCRIPTIONS IN THE SARPAGUMPHA ( to the left of the doorway) The text in Devanagari script is as under:

    L.1- कंमस हलखि

    L.2- णय च पसादो

    Translation: [The pavilion is the] gift of Kamma and Halakhina.

    Note: Most probably Halakhiṇa was the wife of Kamma. Chūlakamma - found in the inscription No.IV and Kamma of this record indicate official designations rather than the proper names. Kamma may be taken as minister of works (Karma saciva) and Cūlakamma appears to be a junior cadre of minister in the Department of works.



    VI - HARIDAS CAVE INSCRIPTION

    This inscription contains one line has been incised over one of the three entrances to the main chamber of the cave from the veranda. The text in Devanagari script is as under:

    चूलकमस पसातो कोठाजेया च

    Translation: The chamber and veranda (or side chamber) are the gift of cūlakama.
    Kamma were a community involved in administrative works or administration. I think when the inscription was written they were already present in AP/Telanagna. Might have come to existence during Satavahanas or Maurya empire or even older. I don't know if you inferring or telling the same

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    Kamma were a community involved in administrative works or administration. I think when the inscription was written they were already present in AP/Telanagna. Might have come to existence during Satavahanas or Maurya empire or even older. I don't know if you inferring or telling the same
    Yeah, that is the same time frame. Based on artifacts and inscriptions evidence we can safely say

    Chedi Dritaketu from Mahabharata Kambhoj soldiers 2nd-3rd mill -> sage Kumbhoj from jain inscriptions and artifacts 2nd mill -> Mauryan Jain -> Chedi Jain kingdom Udayagiri inscriptions and artifacts of 200BC -> Satavahana Amaravati artifacts/inscriptions -> Andhra Ikshvaku artifacts/inscriptions near Nagarjuna Sagar 2nd CE -> Kalachuri Ellora early jain and buddhist inscriptions/artifacts -> Kamma caste
    Y: H-M69 -> H-M82 -> SK1225 -> H-Z5888 -> H-Z5890 -> H-CTS8144 [CTS8144/PF1741/M5498] -> Z34531 (H1a1a4b3b1a8~)
    found 2875 BCE -> Jiroft/IVC Periphery 11459 Shahr-i-Sokte BA2
    mtDNA:U2a1a

    G25 Ancients Dist 0.79 IND_Roopkund_A 51.05 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 46.64 MAR_Iberomaurusian2.04PAK_Katelai_IA0.19 TKM_Gonur2_BA 0.08

    Lactose Persistence rs3213871 rs4988243 rs4988183 rs3769005 rs2236783
    found -> DA125, Kangju

  4. #164
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    H-Z5890 spread in South based on inscriptions and other evidence

    proto-yadu Chedi H-Z5890 (3rd millenia)
    -> Pandyan kingdom -> Nadar
    -> Kerala Pandyan
    -> Kanaya and other groups

    -> Chedi -> Kalachuri -> Kakatiya -> Kamma & new Reddies

    -> Chedi -> Karnatak -> Goa & Karnatak groups

    -> Chedi -> Kuru kingdoms in Central india -> Orissa chedi -> Sri Lanka kuru groups
    Y: H-M69 -> H-M82 -> SK1225 -> H-Z5888 -> H-Z5890 -> H-CTS8144 [CTS8144/PF1741/M5498] -> Z34531 (H1a1a4b3b1a8~)
    found 2875 BCE -> Jiroft/IVC Periphery 11459 Shahr-i-Sokte BA2
    mtDNA:U2a1a

    G25 Ancients Dist 0.79 IND_Roopkund_A 51.05 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 46.64 MAR_Iberomaurusian2.04PAK_Katelai_IA0.19 TKM_Gonur2_BA 0.08

    Lactose Persistence rs3213871 rs4988243 rs4988183 rs3769005 rs2236783
    found -> DA125, Kangju

  5. #165
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    The Chedi connection is strong among all the previous inscriptions, https://www.flickr.com/photos/asienman/22396343127 since we have historical records of Chedi kingdom of orissa talking about people with Kamma surname. Chedi was a strong Jain kingdom.

    The Oswal Jains even today have this gotra. Some of the subgotra names like Pungaliya are shared with

    http://oswals.net/gotras/kummat-kumbhat-kumat
    Kummat gotra is the 15th gotra of the first 18 gotras. Its sub-gotras are as under:

    Kajaliya, Dhanantari, Sudha, Jagavat, singhvi, Pungaliya, Katuriya, Kaputra, Sambharia, Chokha, sonigra, Lahora, Lakhani, Marvani, Morchiya, Chhaliya, Malot, Lagu-Kuffat, Nagori.

    Some of these kumbhoj gotra shared with Bhati kshatriyas and Chauhans

    Bhati : Bhansali, Rakhecha, Pungalia, Aiyaria (Lunavat)

    From Kshatryas : as per https://www.jainsamaj.org/content.ph...tras_in_Oswals

    1. Panwar : Nahar, Bafna, Bardia, Darda, Nahata, Lalwani, Banthia, Barmecha, Kumkum-Chopra, etc.
    2. Chauhans : Lodha, Kataria, Khimasra, Daga, Pithalia, Dugar, Babel, Bhandari, Sankhlecha, Kansatia, Mamaiya, Abeda, Khated, etc.
    3. Parmar : Karania, Gang, Borad, Singhvi-Didu, etc.
    4. Rathore : Chordia, Golechha , Parakh, Chhajed, Zabak, Pokarna, Mohnot, etc.
    5. Khinchi : Galda
    6. Gahlot : Pipara, etc.
    7. Songara Chauhan : Doshi, Bagrecha, Subti, etc.
    8. Bhati : Bhansali, Rakhecha, Pungalia, Aiyaria (Lunavat)
    9. Gaud : Ranka, Banka, etc.
    10. Sidha : Roonwal etc.
    11. Solanki : Loonkad, Shripati, Dadha, Tilora, etc.
    12. Deora : Singhi, Singhvi
    13. Daiya : Salecha-Bohara, etc.
    Y: H-M69 -> H-M82 -> SK1225 -> H-Z5888 -> H-Z5890 -> H-CTS8144 [CTS8144/PF1741/M5498] -> Z34531 (H1a1a4b3b1a8~)
    found 2875 BCE -> Jiroft/IVC Periphery 11459 Shahr-i-Sokte BA2
    mtDNA:U2a1a

    G25 Ancients Dist 0.79 IND_Roopkund_A 51.05 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 46.64 MAR_Iberomaurusian2.04PAK_Katelai_IA0.19 TKM_Gonur2_BA 0.08

    Lactose Persistence rs3213871 rs4988243 rs4988183 rs3769005 rs2236783
    found -> DA125, Kangju

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by tipirneni View Post
    The Chedi connection is strong among all the previous inscriptions, https://www.flickr.com/photos/asienman/22396343127 since we have historical records of Chedi kingdom of orissa talking about people with Kamma surname. Chedi was a strong Jain kingdom.

    The Oswal Jains even today have this gotra. Some of the subgotra names like Pungaliya are shared with

    http://oswals.net/gotras/kummat-kumbhat-kumat
    Kummat gotra is the 15th gotra of the first 18 gotras. Its sub-gotras are as under:

    Kajaliya, Dhanantari, Sudha, Jagavat, singhvi, Pungaliya, Katuriya, Kaputra, Sambharia, Chokha, sonigra, Lahora, Lakhani, Marvani, Morchiya, Chhaliya, Malot, Lagu-Kuffat, Nagori.

    Some of these kumbhoj gotra shared with Bhati kshatriyas and Chauhans

    Bhati : Bhansali, Rakhecha, Pungalia, Aiyaria (Lunavat)

    From Kshatryas : as per https://www.jainsamaj.org/content.ph...tras_in_Oswals

    1. Panwar : Nahar, Bafna, Bardia, Darda, Nahata, Lalwani, Banthia, Barmecha, Kumkum-Chopra, etc.
    2. Chauhans : Lodha, Kataria, Khimasra, Daga, Pithalia, Dugar, Babel, Bhandari, Sankhlecha, Kansatia, Mamaiya, Abeda, Khated, etc.
    3. Parmar : Karania, Gang, Borad, Singhvi-Didu, etc.
    4. Rathore : Chordia, Golechha , Parakh, Chhajed, Zabak, Pokarna, Mohnot, etc.
    5. Khinchi : Galda
    6. Gahlot : Pipara, etc.
    7. Songara Chauhan : Doshi, Bagrecha, Subti, etc.
    8. Bhati : Bhansali, Rakhecha, Pungalia, Aiyaria (Lunavat)
    9. Gaud : Ranka, Banka, etc.
    10. Sidha : Roonwal etc.
    11. Solanki : Loonkad, Shripati, Dadha, Tilora, etc.
    12. Deora : Singhi, Singhvi
    13. Daiya : Salecha-Bohara, etc.
    kummut would be pronounced kum-mut, not kummu -t, I was telling kamma were there in AP/Telangana before chedi itself.

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    kummut would be pronounced kum-mut, not kummu -t, I was telling kamma were there in AP/Telangana before chedi itself.
    How do you know? what proof you have ? You are not a kamma to know it, If any kamma tells you only then you will know.

    Based on your declared group and haplogroup, you are foreign to places where Kamma groups are present.

    People outside mangalore can tell your group by just looking from 100 feet

    Whereas groups like Kamma have lot more history written in their surnames and their haplotypes that are connected to the place where they reside for more than 1000years
    Last edited by tipirneni; 10-17-2020 at 11:47 PM.
    Y: H-M69 -> H-M82 -> SK1225 -> H-Z5888 -> H-Z5890 -> H-CTS8144 [CTS8144/PF1741/M5498] -> Z34531 (H1a1a4b3b1a8~)
    found 2875 BCE -> Jiroft/IVC Periphery 11459 Shahr-i-Sokte BA2
    mtDNA:U2a1a

    G25 Ancients Dist 0.79 IND_Roopkund_A 51.05 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 46.64 MAR_Iberomaurusian2.04PAK_Katelai_IA0.19 TKM_Gonur2_BA 0.08

    Lactose Persistence rs3213871 rs4988243 rs4988183 rs3769005 rs2236783
    found -> DA125, Kangju

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by tipirneni View Post
    How do you know? what proof you have ? You are not a kamma to know it, If any kamma tells you only then you will know.

    Based on your declared group and haplogroup, you are foreign to places where Kamma groups are present.

    People outside mangalore can tell your group by just looking from 100 feet

    Whereas groups like Kamma have lot more history written in their surnames and their haplotypes that are connected to the place where they reside for more than 1000years
    Let's not make this personal, you are free to guess about my community or any community.

    My view was that people from AP/Telangana who were recruited for administration purposes from one community or couple of communities during some kingdom/s over time evolved into a new community. That's why I said it can be during Satavahana/Maurya or even older.
    Last edited by discreetmaverick; 10-18-2020 at 06:59 AM.

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    Let's not make this personal, you are free to guess about my community or any community.

    My view was that people from AP/Telangana who were recruited for administration purposes from one community or couple of communities during some kingdom/s over time evolved into a new community. That's why I said it can be during Satavahana/Maurya or even older.
    These are established lineages for last 1000 years and history going another 4k years. If you any genetic and historical proof do it in organized way for your theory. But talking publicly against another caste when some one is publishing info for sake of public looks mischievous or at a time hatred oriented.
    Y: H-M69 -> H-M82 -> SK1225 -> H-Z5888 -> H-Z5890 -> H-CTS8144 [CTS8144/PF1741/M5498] -> Z34531 (H1a1a4b3b1a8~)
    found 2875 BCE -> Jiroft/IVC Periphery 11459 Shahr-i-Sokte BA2
    mtDNA:U2a1a

    G25 Ancients Dist 0.79 IND_Roopkund_A 51.05 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 46.64 MAR_Iberomaurusian2.04PAK_Katelai_IA0.19 TKM_Gonur2_BA 0.08

    Lactose Persistence rs3213871 rs4988243 rs4988183 rs3769005 rs2236783
    found -> DA125, Kangju

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by tipirneni View Post
    These are established lineages for last 1000 years and history going another 4k years. If you any genetic and historical proof do it in organized way for your theory. But talking publicly against another caste when some one is publishing info for sake of public looks mischievous or at a time hatred oriented.
    I don't know what are you trying to say, I think any opinion, contrary to yours, is mischievous or hate oriented.

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