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Thread: A mystery about P312's early history

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    Going back and reviewing Furholt 2014 "Upending a totality"
    https://www.academia.edu/5878366/Upe...8_January_2014

    Table 1 has the following chronology for the "Corded Ware phenomenon". If it is accurate then eyeballing the chart:
    ~2950 BC Bay Coast Culture in Lithuania/East Prussia
    ~2900 BC Zlota Culture in Southeast Poland
    ~2900 BC Corded Ware in North Central Poland
    ~2825 BC Single Grave Culture in Jutland
    ~2800 BC Battle Axe Culture in Southern Sweden
    ~2800-2750 BC Corded Ware in Central Germany
    ~2775 BC Corded Ware in Bohemia
    ~2775 BC Corded Ware in Southern Germany
    ~2750 BC Single Grave Culture in Netherlands
    ~2725 BC Single Grave Culture in Switzerland
    ~2700 BC Younger Neolithic with Corded Ware in Danish Isles and NE Germany

    Using 15 regional CWC studies, Furholt analyzes the similarities of these Corded Ware groups to each other as it pertains to:
    -9 different types of Beaker pottery forms
    -11 other types of pottery (e.g. bowles, plates, cups, mugs, amphora)
    -3 different axe types
    -Blades
    -Daggers
    -Disc
    -Amber
    -Copper

    Based on these similarities he created a network analysis with line thickness between CWC groups representing similarities i.e. the thicker the line the more similar the two groups were.

    What can be seen in the map on Fig 7 is that:
    The ~2950 BC CWC group in Lithuania/East Prussia has thick line connections to the North Central Poland (Kujawia site), Southern Poland (Sandomierz and Lubacow sites), and the Netherlands.
    The ~2900 BC CWC group in North Central Poland (Kujawia site) has moderately thick line to Bohemia
    The ~2900 BC CWC group in Southeast Poland (Lubaczow) has a moderately thick line connection to the Central Germany Group (Saale).

    The ~2900 BC CWC group in Southeast Poland (Sandomierz) has a moderately thick line connection to the Elb Wesser Group in Northern Germany.
    The similarly aged Central Germany (Saale) and Bohemia sites have a thick line connection to each other; and to the later Moravia Group.

    If these chronologies and connections are accurate and P312 came into existence circa 3000 BC, then the P312 in Corded Ware Bohemia may have come from the Lithuania/East Prussia CWC group (aka Bay Coast Culture) via the North Central Poland Group (Kujawia). As indicated by the Green Lines.

    A less direct route would be from Lithuania/East Prussia to Southern Poland (Lubaczow) to the Central Germany Group (Saale) to Bohemia. As indicated by the Blue Lines.

    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 04-11-2020 at 07:51 AM.
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  3. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Going back and reviewing Furholt 2014 "Upending a totality"
    https://www.academia.edu/5878366/Upe...8_January_2014

    Table 1 has the following chronology for the "Corded Ware phenomenon". If it is accurate then eyeballing the chart:
    ~2950 BC Bay Coast Culture in Lithuania/East Prussia
    ~2900 BC Zlota Culture in Southeast Poland
    ~2900 BC Corded Ware in North Central Poland
    ~2825 BC Single Grave Culture in Jutland
    ~2800 BC Battle Axe Culture in Southern Sweden
    ~2800-2750 BC Corded Ware in Central Germany
    ~2775 BC Corded Ware in Bohemia
    ~2775 BC Corded Ware in Southern Germany
    ~2750 BC Single Grave Culture in Netherlands
    ~2725 BC Single Grave Culture in Switzerland
    ~2700 BC Younger Neolithic with Corded Ware in Danish Isles and NE Germany

    Using 15 regional CWC studies, Furholt analyzes the similarities of these Corded Ware groups to each other as it pertains to:
    -9 different types of Beaker pottery forms
    -11 other types of pottery (e.g. bowles, plates, cups, mugs, amphora)
    -3 different axe types
    -Blades
    -Daggers
    -Disc
    -Amber
    -Copper

    Based on these similarities he created a network analysis with line thickness between CWC groups representing similarities i.e. the thicker the line the more similar the two groups were.

    What can be seen in the map on Fig 7 is that:
    The ~2950 BC CWC group in Lithuania/East Prussia has thick line connections to the North Central Poland (Kujawia site), Southern Poland (Sandomierz and Lubacow sites), and the Netherlands.
    The ~2900 BC CWC group in North Central Poland (Kujawia site) has moderately thick line to Bohemia
    The ~2900 BC CWC group in Southeast Poland (Lubaczow) has a moderately thick line connection to the Central Germany Group (Saale).

    The ~2900 BC CWC group in Southeast Poland (Sandomierz) has a moderately thick line connection to the Elb Wesser Group in Northern Germany.
    The similarly aged Central Germany (Saale) and Bohemia sites have a thick line connection to each other; and to the later Moravia Group.

    If these chronologies and connections are accurate and P312 came into existence circa 3000 BC, then the P312 in Corded Ware Bohemia may have come from the Lithuania/East Prussia CWC group (aka Bay Coast Culture) via the North Central Poland Group (Kujawia). As indicated by the Green Lines.

    A less direct route would be from Lithuania/East Prussia to Southern Poland (Lubaczow) to the Central Germany Group (Saale) to Bohemia. As indicated by the Blue Lines.

    I've also tried to reason through this in the past. I generally couldnt make sense of it if you look at it as migratory. One of the key things though is that this paper is describing post-dispersal convergence by 2nd generation contact networks among CW people. So, it is not going to be a map of migrations. Its a confusing map and it has problems because some of the groups are much younger than others according to radiocarbon dating so its confusing to plot them all on a single map and its also noticeable that there is a lack of correlation in burial details between some of the closest linked areas.

    I found it very hard to come up with anything concrete from the map. The thing that stands out for me isnt so much the strongest connection but the way Kujawia is like the spider at the centre of the web, suggesting the early importance of this area in the CW story. I tend to think that does have significance. Another I think may have significance is the links between the east Baltic and Sadomierz. The map doesnt extend to include Fatyanovo and Middle Dnieper which is a pity. But I read a recent paper on Fatyanovo and it indicated that there were two directions of CW input into it - one from the Middle Dnieper and, interestingly, one from the north Poland/east Baltic area. But middle Dnieper RC dates are too young to have been an origin of Fatyanovo and on balance the south/east Baltic CW link makes more sense. If L151 is found in Fatyanovo in addition to early Czech CW then it suggests it was present in the Poland/east Baltic area or very nearby.

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    Beyond P312, the Bay Coast Culture in Lithuania/East Prussia and Kujawia, Poland, are in good locations as it pertains to other L151 subclades. As others have pointed out, there appears to be an affinity to the Baltic Coast/North German Plain for the other L151 subclades. For many of these subclades we are limited to present day distributions, but U106 expert, Iain McDonald mentioned a few years ago that he thought U106 originated somewhere between Prague and the Baltic Coast.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 04-11-2020 at 09:12 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    The map doesn't extend to include Fatyanovo and Middle Dnieper which is a pity. But I read a recent paper on Fatyanovo and it indicated that there were two directions of CW input into it - one from the Middle Dnieper and, interestingly, one from the north Poland/east Baltic area. But middle Dnieper RC dates are too young to have been an origin of Fatyanovo and on balance the south/east Baltic CW link makes more sense. If L151 is found in Fatyanovo in addition to early Czech CW then it suggests it was present in the Poland/east Baltic area or very nearby.
    To the east by southeast of Kujawia, and northeast of Lubaczˇw, that spidery watershed draining eastward (and off the edge of this map) is the Pripyat Fork of Big Dnieper, as we might say in the USA. If you strap on snowshoes in January, you can probably walk down it to Sredny Stog before it melts and you need a boat. But people did have boats.

    Here's a map showing more of the riverine linkages between the Baltic and the steppe. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post505410

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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    But people did have boats.
    I wouldn't be surprised if boats turned out to be a key to the riddle in the end.

    A few weeks (months?) ago, on some other thread, I posted something very similar to what's below. It didn't seem to raise anyone's interest at the time. I'll post it again now. I am struck by the high level of Combed Ware in NDL BBs. Signicantly higher then in CW on average. The explanation I got (via PM) was that those figures must be some sort of stand-in for a local population with high levels of WHG, eg something Welzin-like. Trouble is, the fits are much better with Combed Ware than with any other group. Could there be a clue hiding there?

    Immi uiros rios toutias rias

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    ...The thing that stands out for me isnt so much the strongest connection but the way Kujawia is like the spider at the centre of the web, suggesting the early importance of this area in the CW story. I tend to think that does have significance. Another I think may have significance is the links between the east Baltic and Sadomierz. The map doesn't extend to include Fatyanovo and Middle Dnieper which is a pity. But I read a recent paper on Fatyanovo and it indicated that there were two directions of CW input into it - one from the Middle Dnieper and, interestingly, one from the north Poland/east Baltic area. But middle Dnieper RC dates are too young to have been an origin of Fatyanovo and on balance the south/east Baltic CW link makes more sense. If L151 is found in Fatyanovo in addition to early Czech CW then it suggests it was present in the Poland/east Baltic area or very nearby.
    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    To the east by southeast of Kujawia, and northeast of Lubaczˇw, that spidery watershed draining eastward (and off the edge of this map) is the Pripyat Fork of Big Dnieper, as we might say in the USA. If you strap on snowshoes in January, you can probably walk down it to Sredny Stog before it melts and you need a boat. But people did have boats.

    Here's a map showing more of the riverine linkages between the Baltic and the steppe. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post505410
    Taking your thoughts into account, you might end up with something like this
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