Page 2 of 34 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 332

Thread: Is a policy of Heard Immunity a policy of Euthanization

  1. #11
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,329
    Sex
    Location
    Republic of Moldova
    Ethnicity
    Moldovan Romanian
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-PH908*, DYS561=15
    mtDNA (M)
    T2a1b1a

    Moldova Romania European Union
    When the virus is new and has a mortality rate between 4-5%, that's absolutely idiotic to consider. The argument was that herd immunity worked for H1N1, but the latter had a mortality rate of 0.02%.
    Recent ancestry: 2/4 Central Moldova (Orhei district), 1/4 Southern Moldova (Cahul district), 1/4 Northern Moldova (Briceni district)Hidden Content
    Hidden Content
    Distance: Hidden Content , Hidden Content
    Plot: Hidden Content , Hidden Content
    Hidden Content

  2. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Dorkymon For This Useful Post:

     Andrewid (03-17-2020),  Cascio (03-17-2020),  ffoucart (03-21-2020),  NixYO (03-18-2020),  sgdavies@hotmail.com (03-17-2020)

  3. #12
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,329
    Sex
    Location
    Republic of Moldova
    Ethnicity
    Moldovan Romanian
    Y-DNA (P)
    I-PH908*, DYS561=15
    mtDNA (M)
    T2a1b1a

    Moldova Romania European Union
    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post
    Number of reported cases per population:
    If you are following the data from worldometers, those guys work with a population of 4m for Moldova, when the last census has it at 2.6m. Thus, the real figure of cases/population is higher and they might have mistakes like these for other countries too.
    Recent ancestry: 2/4 Central Moldova (Orhei district), 1/4 Southern Moldova (Cahul district), 1/4 Northern Moldova (Briceni district)Hidden Content
    Hidden Content
    Distance: Hidden Content , Hidden Content
    Plot: Hidden Content , Hidden Content
    Hidden Content

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to Dorkymon For This Useful Post:

     NixYO (03-18-2020)

  5. #13
    Suspended Account
    Posts
    13,010
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-DF27>DF83
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Looks like the whole world was caught flat footed by this thing, at least based on the number of critical care beds available.

    critical care beds per capita_forbes.jpg

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmc.../#2d57c5407f86

  6. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     NixYO (03-18-2020),  sgdavies@hotmail.com (03-17-2020),  Webb (03-17-2020)

  7. #14
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,258
    Sex
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Ethnicity
    100% European
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    DF27>Z195>FGC23196
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a1a2a

    United States of America United Kingdom Germany Ireland Scotland Wales
    Quote Originally Posted by trdbr1234 View Post
    I would like to start this discussion by saying that, I do believe that the success of a society is inevitably judged by how they treated their most vulnerable. I do believe that everyone deserves to live and that life is precious and worth protecting in all its circumstances.

    However, in light of national policy of Britain, Netherlands, and I secretly suspect the United States, the national policy to dealing with Coronavirus Covid-19 is the strategy of Heard Immunity. I understand that the idea that floats around the strategy of heard immunity is that the majority that is immune would protect the minority that is vulnerable. However, infectious diseases spread though a population indiscriminately and immunity is gained at random, with a higher statistical probability of the healthiest gaining immunity.

    A strategy of gaining heard immunity will inevitably affect the most vulnerable at nearly the same rate. Because with enough time and given enough cross points it is nearly impossible to prevent an airborne disease from infiltrating your life(Unless you opted to complete isolation ofcourse). Heard immunity can therefore be viewed as a watered down version of population euthanization.

    Disregarding the morality of this, would countries applying this strategy gain a long term edge?

    Secondly, is it inevitable and is there an alternative?
    The U.S. is pushing containment. Most states have now closed schools, nonessential businesses, mass gatherings, bars. The other thread was shut down because of political discussions and it seems most people don’t understand how the U.S. government works, understandably if you aren’t American, but even worse if you are. States are autonomous. The governor of Pennsylvania started containment last Friday when the cases here reached 70. The governor of New York started containment Sunday when New York reached close to 1000 cases and had cases for the past several weeks. Both Governors are Democrats, so it isn’t about political party, it’s about sure and quick decisions to protect the public. The Federal Government is urging the sick to quarantine themselves and to put the health of our most vulnerable citizens first.
    Last edited by Webb; 03-17-2020 at 02:17 PM.

  8. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Webb For This Useful Post:

     ffoucart (03-21-2020),  NixYO (03-18-2020),  rms2 (03-17-2020)

  9. #15
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,034
    Sex
    Location
    South Wales
    Ethnicity
    Mostly Welsh,+ flags
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a- Z283 - Y128147
    mtDNA (M)
    J2a1a1a

    Wales Scotland Ireland Cornwall United Kingdom
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Looks like the whole world was caught flat footed by this thing, at least based on the number of critical care beds available.

    critical care beds per capita_forbes.jpg

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmc.../#2d57c5407f86
    Amazing.. at least china built brand new hospitals to cater for this in days, so upping its ranking to near the top, the UK would probably take 2 years to do the same. The UK has not got enough beds, and is renting from Private care (in same hospital buildings) but needs ventilators urgently.
    Gedmatch
    Kit Num: M129412, QA3736362
    23andme
    Hidden Content
    LivingDNA
    Hidden Content

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to sgdavies@hotmail.com For This Useful Post:

     Andrewid (03-17-2020),  rms2 (03-17-2020)

  11. #16
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    3,864
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    Northwest European
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-V22

    Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by trdbr1234 View Post
    I would like to start this discussion by saying that, I do believe that the success of a society is inevitably judged by how they treated their most vulnerable. I do believe that everyone deserves to live and that life is precious and worth protecting in all its circumstances.

    However, in light of national policy of Britain, Netherlands, and I secretly suspect the United States, the national policy to dealing with Coronavirus Covid-19 is the strategy of Heard Immunity. I understand that the idea that floats around the strategy of heard immunity is that the majority that is immune would protect the minority that is vulnerable. However, infectious diseases spread though a population indiscriminately and immunity is gained at random, with a higher statistical probability of the healthiest gaining immunity.

    A strategy of gaining heard immunity will inevitably affect the most vulnerable at nearly the same rate. Because with enough time and given enough cross points it is nearly impossible to prevent an airborne disease from infiltrating your life(Unless you opted to complete isolation ofcourse). Heard immunity can therefore be viewed as a watered down version of population euthanization.

    Disregarding the morality of this, would countries applying this strategy gain a long term edge?

    Secondly, is it inevitable and is there an alternative?
    No on the contrary, every population have to reach 60% of infection rates and recovered people to create a herd immunity. Unless there is a serum ( end of this year?).

    The policy of herd immunity:

    " Letting a potentially lethal infectious disease burn through a population is another way to reach herd immunity, but it comes with considerable risks and downsides (see above). This is why we still need to all work together to try to slow down and minimise the spread of Covid-19 by practicing hand hygiene and social distancing. This will hopefully reduce the pressure on the NHS, allowing for more people to be treated and thus reducing the number of people dying of this infection."

    So this will protect the old and the vulnerable.

    I'm convinced that with this measures the Dutch healthcare this probably can handle this. But there is no better strategy! TINA: there is no alternative. And this strategy is even heavy enough.....

    This is going to be a bumpy road to create herd immunity, and we have to guide/soften this road!

    See this:
    https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/e...herd-immunity/

    I doubt if the US can handle this, because the working poor have mostly no health assurance and not working, no payment. So people try to work even when sick and try to hide it as long as possible. They are going to criple in the gutter. And of course this spreads the disease further.....
    Last edited by Finn; 03-17-2020 at 03:01 PM.

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Finn For This Useful Post:

     ffoucart (03-21-2020),  Johnny ola (03-17-2020)

  13. #17
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,006
    Sex
    Location
    Last of the Mohicans
    Ethnicity
    Gafasigirig
    Nationality
    Icecold
    Y-DNA (P)
    Q-Y16849
    mtDNA (M)
    H14a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R-Z2103
    mtDNA (P)
    HV-T16311C!

    Turkey Afsharid Dynasty
    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    No on the contrary, eery population have to reach 60% of infection rates and recovered people to create a herd immunity. Unless there is a serum ( end of this year?).

    The policy of herd immunity:

    " Letting a potentially lethal infectious disease burn through a population is another way to reach herd immunity, but it comes with considerable risks and downsides (see above). This is why we still need to all work together to try to slow down and minimise the spread of Covid-19 by practicing hand hygiene and social distancing. This will hopefully reduce the pressure on the NHS, allowing for more people to be treated and thus reducing the number of people dying of this infection."

    So this will protect the old and the vulnerable.

    I'm convinced that with this measures the Dutch healthcare this probably can handle this. But there is no better strategy! TINA: there is no alternative. And this strategy is even heavy enough.....

    This is going to be a bumpy road to create herd immunity, and we have to guide/soften this road!

    See this:
    https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/e...herd-immunity/

    I doubt if the US can handle this, because the working poor have mostly no health assurance and not working, no payment. So people try to work even when sick and try to hide it as long as possible. They are going to criple in the gutter. And of course this spreads the disease further.....
    There was an alternative a week ago but they did not take it seriously, and now they will put the house on fire and hope most will walk out alive. All european countries walk over the cliff after each other, we need south korean mentality.
    Of all the countries, this is possibly the most beautiful. All that is beautiful and can be rarely seen in
    other countries can be seen everywhere here... Here live the people who wear the cleanest clothes and prepare the
    most flavorful dishes... Of all of Godís servants, the local people are the most compassionate and merciful...

    Ibn Battuta about Asia Minor 1333CE

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to Afshar For This Useful Post:

     ffoucart (03-21-2020)

  15. #18
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    3,864
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    Northwest European
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-V22

    Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Afshar View Post
    There was an alternative a week ago but they did not take it seriously, and now they will put the house on fire and hope most will walk out alive. All european countries walk over the cliff after each other, we need south korean mentality.
    Can we turn back the clock?
    And there was even a week ago, no support in the population, for measures that now are accepted.....

    Why not China as a good example? Why? Because in the end they relied on despotic, draconian measures. Then I have the old Frisian credo "better dead than slave".

    Total lock down seems appealing.....but in the end we aren't able to stand this for long (at least not in modern societies).

    And it's a false kind of security that corona knocks on the door and when the door is closed (=total lock down) it goes away.

    When we do close the door and than after a long time, when we all have got long beards, and we open the door than it's surprise surprise
    I am there....

    There is a famous Dutch saying, ' we have to bite the sour apple'.

    But I guess most European countries have enough resources, the Dutch have a corona crisis budget of 90 billion euro. I don't know if it's enough. But at least this will probably soften the crisis. If it's enough.....?

    But other parts of the worlds are going to experience the rough way, we ain't see nothing yet.....

  16. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Finn For This Useful Post:

     Afshar (03-17-2020),  sgdavies@hotmail.com (03-17-2020)

  17. #19
    Suspended Account
    Posts
    13,010
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-DF27>DF83
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    . . .

    I doubt if the US can handle this, because the working poor have mostly no health assurance and not working, no payment. So people try to work even when sick and try to hide it as long as possible. They are going to criple in the gutter. And of course this spreads the disease further.....
    The poor have Medicaid. They also regularly use hospital services and cannot be turned away because of inability to pay.

    Please try to avoid becoming political, unless you would like to see this thread get shut down like the other Corona thread was.

    Looks like the Netherlands has some catching up to do, at least when it comes to critical care beds per capita (6.4 per 100,000 population).

    https://link.springer.com/article/10...627-8/tables/2
    Last edited by rms2; 03-17-2020 at 03:13 PM.

  18. #20
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    3,864
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    Northwest European
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-V22

    Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    The poor have Medicaid. They also regularly use hospital services and cannot be turned away because of inability to pay.

    Please try to avoid becoming political, unless you would like to see this thread get shut down like the other Corona thread was.

    These kind of things are quite obvious. No assurance and no work, no pay. Is higher change of criple in the gutter.....

    These are the figures af the US Census Bureau that is a political:

    The official poverty rate in 2018 was 11.8%, a decrease of 0.5 percentage points from 2017. This is the fourth consecutive annual decline in the national poverty rate. In 2018, for the first time in 11 years, the official poverty rate was significantly lower than 2007, the year before the most recent recession. The number of people in poverty in 2018 was 38.1 million, 1.4 million fewer people than 2017.

    The percentage of people with health insurance coverage for all or part of 2018 was 91.5%, lower than the rate in 2017 (92.1%). Between 2017 and 2018, the percentage of people with public coverage decreased 0.4 percentage points, and the percentage of people with private coverage did not statistically change.
    A discussion about 'policy of herd immunity' is basically political.....

    I guess the solution can be simple but some political ideology wins in the US above practical solutions.......we will see who has to suffer for it.....
    Last edited by Finn; 03-17-2020 at 03:19 PM.

Page 2 of 34 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 03-29-2017, 11:52 AM
  2. Multiple Accounts (Zero Tolerance Policy)
    By Administrator in forum Announcements
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-04-2015, 07:07 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •