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Thread: COVID-19 (no politics)

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    Quote Originally Posted by C J Wyatt III View Post
    Meanwhile: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020...gs-coronavirus

    I'm not saying the chloroquine option should be taken off the table - I think we have to try every method at our disposal. But why are we rushing to stockpile an unproven drug and make it so readily available for use in cases where it may very well have little effectiveness, or even adverse consequences? I do hope something useful can come of this, but I really object to the way this is happening, which seems driven by media hype and public thirst for miracle solutions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    I'm not saying the chloroquine option should be taken off the table - I think we have to try every method at our disposal. But why are we rushing to stockpile an unproven drug and make it so readily available for use in cases where it may very well have little effectiveness, or even adverse consequences? I do hope something useful can come of this, but I really object to the way this is happening, which seems driven by media hype and public thirst for miracle solutions.
    Why?

    To save lives.

    We shall see whose analysis reigns supreme. I think that we will not have to wait too long for the answer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by C J Wyatt III View Post
    Why?

    To save lives.

    We shall see whose analysis reigns supreme. I think that we will not have to wait too long for the answer.
    The problem is, as far as I can tell, we're not talking about competing scientific analyses here. The vast majority of information coming from the scientific community has been on the side of exercising caution in applying chloroquine and pushing for more testing on that and other drugs. The alternate opinion is not so much a scientific one as one of political expediency. It may be a gamble that pays off, but it is a gamble, and frankly I don't see why the U.S. couldn't wait for the results of our own clinical trials in NY and the WHO studies, both of which are currently under way, before making such a move. There are hundreds, if not thousands of variables involved here, and while we may not have time to test all of those, at the very least common sense and best medical practice would dictate some degree of testing before making a drug known to have dangerous, even fatal, side effects available to a huge population with preexisting conditions, on medications that could easily have dangerous interactions, particularly when there is very little evidence that it even has any benefits to begin with. As you say though, we may soon see.
    Last edited by passenger; 03-30-2020 at 05:47 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by C J Wyatt III View Post
    Why?

    To save lives.

    We shall see whose analysis reigns supreme. I think that we will not have to wait too long for the answer.
    To save lives?

    On which ground?

    So far, we have only an unpublished paper from Raoult's team, not randomized, with very limited gain (reduction of viral charge at day 6 in patients with no or limited symptoms). His previous paper saying the same thing but with big methologic holes (and a very limited number of cases). And a chinese paper saying there is no gain at all.

    And from what is said by doctors in charge of testing in several hospitals in Europe, they are saying they see no real gain at this moment.

    Moreover, a regional health administration just issued an alert because people are intoxicating themselves with Hydroxychloroquine taken without medical control.

    Frankly, if Chloroquine was a hit, we would already know as many hospitals are using it in Europe for some weeks now. By the end of this week, we'll know as the first intermediate results of Discovery will be announced. Very likely, Chloroquine and Hydroxychloroquine will be taken off the table
    Last edited by ffoucart; 03-30-2020 at 06:12 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    The problem is, as far as I can tell, we're not talking about competing scientific analyses here. The vast majority of information coming from the scientific community has been on the side of exercising caution in applying chloroquine and pushing for more testing on that and other drugs.
    I don't see the problem here. Who is for throwing caution to the wind in a headlong effort to make sure everyone takes chloroquine now?

    From what I have seen and heard, no one has expressed anything more than cautious optimism with regard to its possible efficacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    The alternate opinion is not so much a scientific one as one of political expediency . . .
    What "alternate opinion"?

    Maybe chloroquine is useless; maybe it's not. Time and research will tell.

    But the effort to discredit its use, mostly by people who don't really know what they're talking about, the pretty obviously emotional and visceral reaction to the mere expression of guarded optimism about its possible use, strikes me as nothing more than a matter of political expediency.

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    Quote Originally Posted by passenger View Post
    The problem is, as far as I can tell, we're not talking about competing scientific analyses here. The vast majority of information coming from the scientific community has been on the side of exercising caution in applying chloroquine and pushing for more testing on that and other drugs. The alternate opinion is not so much a scientific one as one of political expediency. It may be a gamble that pays off, but it is a gamble, and frankly I don't see why the U.S. couldn't wait for the results of our own clinical trials in NY and the WHO studies, both of which are currently under way, before making such a move. There are hundreds, if not thousands of variables involved here, and while we may not have time to test all of those, at the very least common sense and best medical practice would dictate some degree of testing before making a drug known to have dangerous, even fatal, side effects available to a huge population with preexisting conditions, on medications that could easily have dangerous interactions, particularly when there is very little evidence that it even has any benefits to begin with. As you say though, we may soon see.
    It is not a new drug. We know the side effects.
    As with all medicines, doctors who are familiar with this medicine, will not prescribe it for everyone!
    This medicine is freely given by doctors if they think it necessary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    But the effort to discredit its use, mostly by people who don't really know what they're talking about, the pretty obviously emotional and visceral reaction to the mere expression of guarded optimism about its possible use, strikes me as nothing more than a matter of political expediency.
    Well, I am not sure if "people who don't really know what they're talking about" can apply to:
    François BALLOUX:
    https://twitter.com/BallouxFrancois/...64693587853314
    https://www.ucl.ac.uk/biosciences/de...ancois-balloux
    Karine LACOMBE:
    https://www.virology-education.com/k...ombe-md-phd-2/

    By the way, there is no effort to discredit the use of Chloroquine (nobody is against testing it). It is only criticism about methodology, as Pr RAOULT has clearly stated that he will not apply scientific methodoly, as he is sure of the effect of Chloroquine on COVID 19. The critics are thefore on the lack of proof of his conclusions.

    In fact, in his videos on Youtube, RAOULT is promoting a wide use of Chloroquine, to everyone which could be COVID 19 +. His agenda is clear: by using widely Chloroquine, he is hoping to stop contamination. Except it is very dangerous, as you may well kill people due to side effect. Perhaps more thant COVID 19 would do. This is not a theorical question: Le Point (a magazine in which RAOULT is editorialist) has published an article today on toxicity problems with patients COVID 19+ treated with Chloroquine or Hydroxychloroquine. A warning is to be made in the next days about this:
    https://www.lepoint.fr/sante/exclusi...2369285_40.php

    "Nouveau rebondissement dans la controverse planétaire autour de la chloroquine (commercialisée sous le nom de nivaquine) et de l'hydroxychloroquine (Plaquenil) pour traiter l'infection au coronavirus. Le pharmacien d'un grand CHU français, correspondant du Centre de pharmacovigilance de sa région, a lancé l'alerte vendredi 27 mars auprès de médecins infectiologues et pharmaciens de son établissement. « Des cas de patients Covid-19 positifs [c'est-à-dire dont l'infection a été validée par un test] présentent, sous hydroxychloroquine associée ou non à l'azithromycine [un antibiotique], des troubles du rythme ou de la conduction cardiaque, des arrêts cardiaques dans d'autres centres hospitaliers français. » Certains de ces arrêts se révèlent « fatals ».

    « Ces cas sont en cours d'évaluation », a indiqué au Point ce pharmacien, et « seront ensuite transmis à l'ANSM [Agence nationale de sécurité des médicaments] ». L'information a vite circulé en direction d'infectiologues d'autres CHU, d'anesthésistes-réanimateurs, tous ces soignants en première ligne pour sauver des malades victimes de cette épidémie inédite et fulgurante."

    "New twist in the global controversy around chloroquine (marketed under the name nivaquine) and hydroxychloroquine (Plaquenil) to treat coronavirus infection. The pharmacist of a large French university hospital, correspondent for the Center for pharmacovigilance in his region, launched an alert Friday, March 27, with infectious disease physicians and pharmacists at his establishment. “Cases of Covid-19 positive patients [that is to say, whose infection has been validated by a test] present, with hydroxychloroquine associated or not with azithromycin [an antibiotic], rhythm disturbances or cardiac conduction, cardiac arrests in other French hospitals. Some of these judgments turn out to be "fatal".

    "These cases are being evaluated," said the pharmacist, and "will then be sent to the ANSM [National Medicines Safety Agency]". Information quickly circulated in the direction of infectiologists from other CHUs, anesthetists and resuscitators, all of these caregivers on the front line to save the sick victims of this unprecedented and meteoric epidemic."

    The fact that Le Point has published this, is meaning that the information has been verified. Le Point has been defending RAOULT and the use of Chloroquine from some time now, so would not have taken the risk to publish it without verification.

    By the way, Chloroquine and Hydroxychloroquine are known to have side effects on heart, among them myocarditis. Problem is that some have already reported myocarditis as a symptom of COVID 19. It is therefore difficult to known if the cause is the drug or COVID 19, or if the drug is increasing the risk.
    Last edited by ffoucart; 03-30-2020 at 02:03 PM.

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  19. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolan View Post
    This medicine is freely given by doctors if they think it necessary.
    Not in France, nor in USA: the use for COVID 19 is restricted to hospitals.

    By the way, the side effects are known, hence why some caution should be the norm.
    Last edited by ffoucart; 03-30-2020 at 02:00 PM.

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