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Thread: The Genomic Formation of Human Populations in East Asia preprint

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by ybmpark View Post
    That is the Holocene picture but going farther back both Yana and MA1 had West Eurasian MtDNA. Yana had a "possibly" East Eurasian or ambiguous Y. For MA1 it should be considered West Eurasian Y though I think it is quite funny that you guys and even some top researchers are so obsessed with East-West division.
    Yes, that's why Salkhit DNA is so important. She is very old "Mongolian", she lived 34-35 kya ago. She is older than Yana or Ma1.

    Her mtDNA is N. TMRCA of N in East Asia is very old, and there are plenty of N haplogroups in Asia.
    Last edited by Kristiina; 04-10-2020 at 08:12 AM.

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    I am not so up to date with recent results but almost all Asian MtDNA > 20000 years old are N, Ust Ishim, Tianyuan, Salkhit, even Oase with no clear affinity. Even Yana and MA1 who are geographically Asian.
    It may be even true that currently the oldest M is from Europe or Americas. That may change in the future but is still very odd.
    Other oddities.
    1 the oldest YDNA haplo C is Kotenski 14 with a clear autosomal and MtDNA West Eurasian affinity. He as C1b.
    2 Most ancient C1a are from Europe but in a Japanese study I recall almost all YDNA of medieval Emish remains (who are akin to Ainu but lived in Northern Honshu) were C1a not D.
    So I suspect that really old aboriginal Japanese remains may be C1a and D. It will be very difficult to find them though.
    3 The oldest K2a are in Europe and Siberia.
    4 C2(formerly C3) does not turn up until Devil's gate.
    5 East Asians may not have had MtDNA M until relatively late possibly from Southeast Asia. But they got them early enough to transmit them to Native Americans.

    Once again I may not be familiar with the latest results...

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    Yes, but Ust Ishim is R*, Tianyuan is B, Yana is U2’3’4’7’8 and Ma1 is U*. All these are under R, and, among these, U is clearly western as it is found in Upper Paleolithic Europeans and in Kostenki. Salkhit N is outside of this cluster.

    Have a look at the structure of the mtDNA tree:

    MtDNA tree.GIF

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    Quote Originally Posted by Songtsen View Post
    Are there any comprehensive list of verified Sino-TIbetan cognates?
    None that are in widespread use by people other than their authors.
    The best-known attempt is probably Matisoff's Handbook of Proto-Tibeto-Burman, based on earlier work by Paul K. Benedict. It tries to reconstruct "Proto-Tibeto-Burman", and lists Old Chinese cognates with those reconstructed forms (in the completely obsolete reconstruction by Bernhard Karlgren).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya View Post
    None that are in widespread use by people other than their authors.
    The best-known attempt is probably Matisoff's Handbook of Proto-Tibeto-Burman, based on earlier work by Paul K. Benedict. It tries to reconstruct "Proto-Tibeto-Burman", and lists Old Chinese cognates with those reconstructed forms (in the completely obsolete reconstruction by Bernhard Karlgren).
    I sometimes think that Sinto-TIbetan is like Altaic language system .. a vague and incoherant language system.

    Can anyone provide the so called 100 "root words" of Sino-TIbetan language system ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Songtsen View Post
    Can anyone provide the so called 100 "root words" of Sino-TIbetan language system ?
    Do you mean a Swadesh list? I don't know if anyone has published one for their reconstruction of Proto-Sino-Tibetan - there are quite a few for individual languages. A good place to look is the Sino-Tibetan Etymological Dictionary and Thesaurus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    Do you mean a Swadesh list? I don't know if anyone has published one for their reconstruction of Proto-Sino-Tibetan - there are quite a few for individual languages. A good place to look is the Sino-Tibetan Etymological Dictionary and Thesaurus.
    Thank you so much ... Hopefully I will find what I am looking for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Songtsen View Post
    I sometimes think that Sinto-TIbetan is like Altaic language system .. a vague and incoherant language system.
    A thought-provoking idea! What if we've all been wrong all along?
    But no, I don't think Sino-Tibetan is like Altaic. Sino-Tibetan is like Indo-European in 1850. It's obvious the languages are related, but there's an enormous scholarly effort still ahead of us to prove it, and eventually to reconstruct the proto-language.

    Quote Originally Posted by Songtsen View Post
    Can anyone provide the so called 100 "root words" of Sino-TIbetan language system ?
    You can look at this list of cognates by Satterthwaite-Phillips 2011: https://cdstar.shh.mpg.de/bitstreams...illips2011.pdf

    The Appendix to this paper published in PNAS by Sagart et al. gives a list of concepts only (without cognates): https://cdstar.shh.mpg.de/bitstreams...illips2011.pdf
    I have misgivings about the methodology and hence about the results they report, but the list itself is probably sound.

    The Appendix at the end of this paper by Jacques 2017 gives 20-odd verbal roots found in Kiranti and one or more other ST languages, including Old Chinese: https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/...31021/document

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    Quote Originally Posted by ybmpark View Post
    Not entirely wrong per se but still potentially quite misleading. You could also have said Northern Hans are between Koreans and Yi.
    By "pulling away" you imply that the two populations were origninally more similar but that may not be the case here.
    There was a similar paper by Korean researchers and they implied that Chinese were between Koreans and Southeast Asians.
    Obviously that has a Korean bias as opposed to the usual Chinese bias prevalent among Chinese and Westerners.
    I didn't mean that Mongola are "pulled away" from Northern Han towards Mongolia Mongols, if that's what you're suggesting. It does seem like Mongola has more Han-like/agriculturalist ancestry than Outer Mongolia Mongols though.

    It's true that Northern Han are autosomally somewhere between Naxi/Yi and Koreans. Not sure if there is a cline between a more Naxi-like group and a more Korean-like group within Northern China though. It's also true that Han Chinese are between Koreans and Vietnamese in the sense that the most Yayoi-shifted Northern Chinese overlap with Koreans, and that the most SEA-shifted Southern Han from Guangxi overlap with Vietnamese.

    Regarding the paper's attempt to model millet farmer vs rice farmer ancestry in modern-day Han... Lingnan Han are probably best modeled as some combination of Ancestral Northern Chinese + Dai, which makes sense because the pre-Chinese inhabitants of Guangdong and Guangxi were almost certainly Daic speakers (although some may have been Austronesian or Austroasiatic). The problem with using Ancient Taiwanese aborigines as a proxy for this Dai-like rice-farmer ancestry is that Mainland SEA and Island SEA aren't equivalent. Dai is significantly closer to "Central Chinese" and the Tianyuan-like ancestry of Tibetans than Ami/Igorot are.

    West Guangdong and Cantonese-speaking Pearl River Delta Han seem to exhibit structure between a more Hakka/"Han_HGDP"-like cluster and a more Zhuang-like cluster, but I'm not sure if this is correlated with ancestral dialect.

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    I found a very intresting new paper and newly published paperregarding east asian population. It seems that Han chinese population can be divided into 7 distinct parts. The inner mongolians are relatively more close to northwestern Han than previously believed. The Yizu ethnic group is more south and western shifted than previously believed. The Tibetans are very distant from almost all the major ethnic groups in China. Japanese can fit bang in the northern Han population.


    The ChinaMAP analytics of deep whole genome sequences in 10,588 individuals in China.
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41422-020-0322-9



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