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Thread: The Genomic Formation of Human Populations in East Asia preprint

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by ybmpark View Post
    I thought I was in the wrong thread. Some people have the amazing talent of turning every thread into glorification of R1a.
    I hear you!
    But to be fair Silesian himself is R1b.
    And no matter the Y of folk who built it, that Sintashta chariot is indeed exquisite!
    Last edited by parasar; 04-01-2020 at 03:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Multiple scenarios are possible. Personally I am partial to the association of PIE with Y-R1a, and an origin from the 'Khazar' steppe (South Russia, E. Ukraine) area. or maybe even the forest-steppe zone, but genetic data is looking weak for a PIE or even I/IA origin in the steppes.
    Though ultimately IE is a linguistic issue, and I think will need some sort of a decipherment of the IVC seals.

    http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zor.../sarianidi.htm
    "All three temples of Margiana and especially the Gonur temenos yielded the archaeological material that documentally illustrate the process frequently mentioned in the Avesta and Rigveda."

    https://books.google.com/books?id=_eykCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA83
    "The BMAC culture expanded to the Gorgan region ... Tepe Hissar IIIC ... Ghirshman ... Indo-Aryan speaking nobles of the Mitanni ... from the Tepe Hissar IIIC ... "

    "kneeling figure from Gonur North, Royal Sanctuary Room 132, which Sarianidi likens to the ‘priest king’ from Mohenjo Daro."
    "An example is the fire temple in the lower town of Mohenjo-daro; its basic plan comprises a ‘courtyard encompassed by corridors’ (Dhavalikar and Atre 1989)” (Fig. 21)."








    "Thanks to the discovery of these new bone or
    ivory items, the Central Asian pieces now outnumber
    those from Pakistan and India, raising the question
    whether we should indeed assume a non-local
    production, or consider the possibility that we are
    actually dealing with imports into South Asia from
    the north.
    The case of the sticks looks ambiguous,
    even though the larger variability of ornamentation
    observable in the Indus region militates against a
    Central Asian production.45 Nonetheless, a South
    Asian provenience can be proven only when scientific
    analyses show the pieces to be of elephant ivory."

    But,
    "we have serious concerns about the conclusions reached by Sarianidi some of which we know to be factually incorrect. Others scientists have not only failed to verify Sarianidi's claims to have discovered residues of narcotic substances stored in containers within these "temples" (sic), but have also identified the residues of impressions of the seeds stored within the containers as a food grain.

    Sarianidi has been obsessed with the notion that the primary function of the "temple" was to support the ritual of preparing a narcotic which he describes as the Zoroastrian haoma. We discuss the absurdity of this notion below. He also states that these so-called temples at Togolok-21 and Gonur "had fire altars as well, that were always located in secret places inside the temples and were hidden behind high blind walls."

    We should keep in mind that the early Zoroastrians did not as far as we know construct urban temples. In any event, Zoroastrians have never at any time constructed temples to produce a narcotic - never. ...

    We must also wonder on what basis Sarianidi and his cohorts came to the conclusion that some of the building were part of a temple complex. The containers that Sarianidi claims stored narcotics were simply grain containers, the likes of which are found all over the region. Any oven in the same building could have been used to cook or bake bread. What Sarianidi and his cohorts fancy to be a temple could have been a bakery....

    While not mentioned in the Avesta, it is in the realm of possibilities that Zarathushtra (Zoroaster) could have conducted a ministry in or near Gonur - and elsewhere in the vicinity as well. And while Zoroastrians could have lived in the vicinity of Gonur, there is no basis for the claim that Zarathushtra was born in, or that Zoroastrianism originated in, Gonur, Margush or Turkmenistan. ...

    In conclusion, was Gonur while it existed Zoroastrian? Possibly - depending on the date you feel Zarathushtra established his religion. Was the Murgab delta, Mouru, part of the greater Aryan federation? Yes. Was the Murgab delta, Mouru, a nation with early Zoroastrians? Most likely. Was the Murgab delta, Mouru, the birthplace of Zarathushtra/Zoroaster or Zoroastrianism? No....

    The people and nations of the Avesta, the Aryans, were a settled, organized people who farmed and lived in towns. Zoroastrian texts tell us that it is from the north that an ill wind blew and that brought with it a violent and destructive people who raided and plundered the towns of the Aryans."
    http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zor...erv/gonur2.htm
    Another comment filled with special pleading, trying to rely on cultural elements as proof of language relations. Cultural elements can and are often borrowed. The case for the steppe origin of PIE and especially satemic languages could not be stronger. There is no migration from South Asia thst would explain the connections between South Asia and the Baltic. We've been over this plenty of times, no amount of pleading to fire temples will suddenly make IVC indo-European. Again, zero migration links IVC to the Baltic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Faravid View Post
    Another comment filled with special pleading, trying to rely on cultural elements as proof of language relations. Cultural elements can and are often borrowed. The case for the steppe origin of PIE and especially satemic languages could not be stronger. There is no migration from South Asia thst would explain the connections between South Asia and the Baltic. We've been over this plenty of times, no amount of pleading to fire temples will suddenly make IVC indo-European. Again, zero migration links IVC to the Baltic.
    And language is not a cultural element?

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    Quote Originally Posted by okarinaofsteiner View Post
    Annotated version of Figure 2B from the preprint.
    Also annotated Fig 2A:







    I can make out the following Han samples that provide some clues as to what the clusters within the N-S Chinese cline correspond to:

    1) a Shandong sample near the black asterisks ("Xiongnu") inside the Han_NChina cluster

    2) a few Shanghai and Jiangsu samples close to the furthest right blank red triangle (most southern-shifted WZGL) and to the left of Tujia on PC1, close to but clearly separate from the Han_NChina cluster

    3) 2-3 Sichuan/Chongqing samples in between Tujia and Miao on PC1 and shifted slightly down on PC2 compared to most of the Han_HDGP cluster

    4) a Fujian sample that's to the right of 3) on PC1 but to the left of She, and is shifted up on PC2 compared to the rest of the Han_HDGP cluster

    5) a handful of Guangdong samples that are to the right of Miao and She on PC1, and overlap with the most Chinese-shifted Kinh/KHV samples

    6) interestingly, the Han samples that are furthest right on PC1 are also shifted up on PC2 towards Ami and Atayal. Can't tell if they're part of CHB, Han_HGDP, or CHS but it's consistent with what I've seen in other PC plots with those Han reference populations.

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    okarinaofsteiner :

    My first post here so please bear with me if I make some stupid comments. I am quite new to genetics and anthropology.

    I have always though that the TIbetans were quite close the Mongols and Chinese but the PCA chart shows that Hans are more closely related to Mongola (inner mongolian?) than the TIbetans.

    And how can modern Tibetans be relatively close to ancient Xinjiang when Xinjiang was domiciled by an Indoeruopean people? and my last question is that amost all of ancient mongolian sites are situated roughly in between the modern TIbetan and mongolians. Does that mean that the ancient Mongolians were more closer to the modern TIbetans than the modern day mongols are ?


    Or am I being absolute newbie and reading the PCA chart all wrong.
    Last edited by Songtsen; 04-02-2020 at 11:18 AM. Reason: forgot to add some points.

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    From Razib Khan's comments:
    “we know some populations in Amazonia are more closely related to the “southern” lineage than they “should be …… I think “southern” lineage population was long present along the Pacific fringe. The Jomon heritage is clear evidence of that. It is not implausible that there was structure in ancient Beringia, and some coastal populations with “southern” ancestry moved on earlier than the inland groups, and were mostly replaced except in the deep Amazon. “
    The heir populations of all biological, technical and cultural adaptations to aquatic life, gained from the African coast of the Indian Ocean to the northeastern Pacific should continue to America. The Chinese do not assimilate algae well. Since the Japanese are the people who best assimilate algae, did this adaptation to aquatic life come from the Jomon ? During the last glacial maximum (LGM) the Pacific Ocean was below the continental slope of Beringia. Because of this, the coast of Beringia was quite a wall, immense and torn by colossal canyons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhemch...in_canyons.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catego...the_Bering_Sea At that time, the sun shone more hours due to more water retained in the glaciers reduce cloud cover, so, the cliff of the south coast, in addition to protecting from the icy north winds, as it was facing the south midday sun, it may had created a milder microclimate. The many indentations and islands of the south coast also created good shelter ports and, its canyons to cut the fury of the weather, should be a good shelter for life, including whales to hunt, as they had depths around 2,000 3,000m despite the lowest level of the oceans then. The salmon and other fish climbing the canyons should attract many bears, seals, walruses… . With all this, they would be good points of support for the human pioneers who advanced to the east, regain strength and replenish. In the summer, with the help of the “midnight sun” and the strong moonlight, especially that of August, they could paddle along the cliff day and night, sleeping only one at a time, on trying to find the way out, to a new maze. The progression of fishermen or shellfish gatherers along the coast is also possible but, as the cliff is the continental slope, descends progressively upright to the ocean floor thousands of meters away depth, it is difficult to have beaches and rocky areas at the foot or underwater meadows close by, therefore, it supports few fish, shellfish or other. However, the progression of these human groups would be rapid as the shellfish do not swim, at least not like the fish, depleting them in one place, we have to move forward, as it will take time until it is repopulated. Even the return of the octopus will not be quick. Only the lone fish, of the stones, will remain. These navigators did not penetrate the continent, the advantage there was for the populations of the Siberian interior, but they would go through the biologically rich kelp forests on the coast to the Amazon aquatic kingdom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Songtsen View Post
    okarinaofsteiner :

    My first post here so please bear with me if I make some stupid comments. I am quite new to genetics and anthropology.

    I have always though that the TIbetans were quite close the Mongols and Chinese but the PCA chart shows that Hans are more closely related to Mongola (inner mongolian?) than the TIbetans.

    And how can modern Tibetans be relatively close to ancient Xinjiang when Xinjiang was domiciled by an Indoeruopean people? and my last question is that amost all of ancient mongolian sites are situated roughly in between the modern TIbetan and mongolians. Does that mean that the ancient Mongolians were more closer to the modern TIbetans than the modern day mongols are ?


    Or am I being absolute newbie and reading the PCA chart all wrong.
    2A and 2B are showing different things. Fig2A (top) compares East Asians and Siberians to Native Americans and Europeans. Fig2B (bottom) ignores Siberian, Native American, and European ancestry.

    2A shows that modern-day Mongolians (orange squares?) are further away from Chinese than Tibetans, like you said. It looks like their East Eurasian ancestry is closer to Siberians, and they also have some Caucasian-like ancestry that Han Chinese and Tibetans don't have.

    2B only looks at the East Asian-like ancestry of the 2 Ancient Mongolian groups. The gold-color Ancient Mongolian cluster's East Asian ancestry is closer to Tibetans, while the orange-color Ancient Mongolian cluster's East Asian ancestry is pulled towards Devil's Gate and Ulchi. While the modern-day Mongol samples (orange squares?) are in between the 2 Ancient clusters, and are slightly shifted towards the Northern Chinese.

    So Tibetans are closer to Northern Chinese when you consider how distant Siberian populations are from East Asians + West Eurasian admixture in Mongolians. But Tibetans also have a separate ancestry component that pulls them away from other East Asians (as shown in 2B.)

    Hope this answers your questions!

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    Thank you so much.That explains a lot but if you have some time to spare I have some more questions.

    What is the meaning of mongola and why are northen chinese so relatively close to them.

    I am also confused that XIbo is more close to Northern Chinese than the TIbetans when TIbetans have extensively intermarried with the XIbo.

    Also why does Harappa shows that Northern Chinese have substaintial south east asia genetics while TIbetan and Mongols have zero ?

    Thank you

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    Quote Originally Posted by Songtsen View Post
    Thank you so much.That explains a lot but if you have some time to spare I have some more questions.

    What is the meaning of mongola and why are northen chinese so relatively close to them.

    I am also confused that XIbo is more close to Northern Chinese than the TIbetans when TIbetans have extensively intermarried with the XIbo.

    Also why does Harappa shows that Northern Chinese have substaintial south east asia genetics while TIbetan and Mongols have zero ?

    Thank you
    1) Not sure but I'm guessing Mongola is a Mongolic ethnic group that mixed more with Chinese historically?

    2) The Xibo are a Tungusic ethnic group so they should be shifted towards the other Amur Basin ethnic groups (yellow). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibe_people

    3) HarappaWorld is a South Asia-centric DNA ancestry calculator, so its "NE Asia" and "SE Asia" categories are based on ethnic groups native tofrom the Indian subcontinent. I think "NE Asia" is supposed to represent Naga-like East Eurasian ancestry (Tibeto-Burman/"millet farmer"), while "SE Asia" is supposed to represent Munda-like East Eurasian ancestry (even though Munda are only part East Eurasian; I think this is a good proxy for "rice farmer" ancestry).

    Northern Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese all score 10-20% "SE Asia" and 5-15% "Siberian" but are mostly "NE Asia". This makes sense because all Han Chinese have both millet farmer and rice farmer ancestry, and because Koreans and Japanese are rice-farming peoples. Tibetans and Mongols probably have little rice farmer ancestry because there was no historical migration of rice farmers to Tibet and Mongolia.

    I scored ~73% NEA, ~19% SEA, ~6% Siberian, and ~1% Papuan. Think this puts me toward the northern end of the Han Chinese cline.

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    Thank you so much. I now know how much I dont know about this subject.

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