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Thread: The Genomic Formation of Human Populations in East Asia preprint

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    Quote Originally Posted by b.wang View Post
    Wouldn't a little admixture between Onge and East Asian in either direction do this? Especially if Tianyuan is not a direct ancestor of northern ENA but a parallel branch. The southern east Asian component was still moving northwards even during historic times in China, so it would give off a stronger signal.

    A clearer picture is to compare Papuan with East Asian.
    It's hard to figure out how much Onge ancestry (Onge-related in reality) exists in East Asians but I also suspect it's inflated, primarily because Tianyuan is not a direct ancestor but more of a sister lineage. But I am not aware of any southern East Asian component moving northwards during historic times in China, would you mean the slightly southern shifted position of even northern Han relative to Longshan and LBIA samples? That's mostly Yangtze farmer-related ancestry imo.
    Last edited by Max_H; 10-18-2020 at 05:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by okarinaofsteiner View Post
    General observations:

    - Liangdao1 and Liangdao2 seem to represent different "clusters" of rice farmer-like ancestry in modern-day Han Chinese. Liangdao1 has a more "northern" distribution than Liangdao2, which seems more common among Han subgroups that are geographically further south. Liangdao1 peaks among Han subgroups along the Yangtze River, while Liangdao2 peaks among Guangdong Han (next to Hong Kong), Chongqing Han (adjacent to Sichuan in the SW), Fujian Han (across from Taiwan), and Shanghai Han.

    - Han_Sichuan is somewhat more "northern" shifted than Han_Chongqing, despite the two populations being very culturally and linguistically similar. This is reflected in Han_Sichuan having more Liangdao1 relative to Liangdao2, and also having some Miaozigou (Manchuria Neolithic)

    - The fits in the first table are better (lower distance) because they use Yellow_River_MN, which is more directly ancestral to modern-day Han Chinese than any of the other "northern" Neolithic populations (Boshan, Xiaojingshan, Miaozigou).

    - Xiaojingshan in the second table is a proxy for additional NE Asian-like ancestry found among Northern Han and Yangtze Delta Han that Boshan doesn't pick up.

    - It isn't surprising Han_Shanxi has some Caucasian admixture, given historical Turkic invasions of Northern China and Anthroscape members' observations about the physical appearance of Inland Northern China Han Chinese.
    Just curious, what have they said about the physical appearance of inland Northern Han?

    Most modern-day Sichuanese are probably a mix of late Ming-early Qing period immigrants from Hunan and Hubei (and possibly some other provinces too) with perhaps more Hubei immigrants in Sichuan than in Chongqing which would make them more northern than Chongqing Han. I don't think Miaozigou makes much sense for Sichuan however.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adriyu View Post
    可能对这几个遗址的地理位置不了解,亮岛古人发现于远离大陆的贝丘遗址中,不是南方水稻农业人群,庙子沟文 化位于内蒙古中部地区,不是满洲新石器时代。
    详情可以看
    https://mt-y.cn/
    不好意思,我不太理解这些考古遗址的细节。我认为亮岛古人相当于现代汉族的南方水稻农业人 祖先成分。

    English: Sorry, I'm not very familiar with the details on these archeological sites. I figured we can use Liangdao as a proxy for the "rice farmer" component in modern-day Han.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Max_H View Post
    Just curious, what have they said about the physical appearance of inland Northern Han?

    Most modern-day Sichuanese are probably a mix of late Ming-early Qing period immigrants from Hunan and Hubei (and possibly some other provinces too) with perhaps more Hubei immigrants in Sichuan than in Chongqing which would make them more northern than Chongqing Han. I don't think Miaozigou makes much sense for Sichuan however.
    I'm not sure why there would be any significant differences between the G25 Sichuan Han and Chongqing Han populations in the first place. There may have been ethnolinguistic differences between Shu and Ba states during the pre-imperial era, but that would've been too long ago to affect the genetics of modern-day Sichuan Basin Han given all the demographic replacement and intermixing that would've taken place since.


    Hard to find concrete statements on the physical appearance on NW China Han. It's just a neverending stream of photo dumps and guesses on where people can "pass".
     

    https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/anth...na-t86464.html
    They look like they definitely share some similarities with Hui Chinese, whom I perceive to be more western-shifted. They look like they are an intermediate group that shares similarities with Hui Chinese, Naxi and more familiar Shandong Chinese, if that makes sense.
    From what I've noticed, they look more narrow faced than Shandong Chinese and of course Koreans by extension. But I doubt this is caused by Caucasian influence. Like the people in that region shouldn't have West Asian/Caucasian DNA more than 3-5%, which is nowhere enough to influence appearance. Perhaps their divergence in appearance is caused by some sort of Founders Effect. Or they are influenced by certain narrow faced Tungus tribes.
    https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/anth...80084#p1880084
    Shaanxi/Shanxi/Inner Mongolian/Gansu Han Chinese tend to have more uniform and consistent orthocranic headshapes in my experience
    https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/anth...79973#p1879973
    I think Xi'an has much more intermediary "middle chinese/sinid" types being the ancient capital of China and everything than Shaanbei or Han settled regions of Inner Mongolia, which are still quite close to the Ancient North China types
    https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/anth...80881#p1880881
    I think Taiyuan people as a whole might have a somewhat higher rate of prognathism than Shaanxi (including Xi'an) I had previously observed this in real life as well. Although what might cause this I'm not sure about.
    https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/anth...223-s7050.html
    Yinchuan students are definitely more Central Asian looking than the other two. Many remind me of PRC international students whose features I generally didn't see among northern Chinese ABCs. The less Central Asian-looking students tended to have paler skin and more "Tungid" features... Yinchuan students also had higher frequencies of "phoenix"/closed-set eyes than the other two groups. It was mostly (but not exclusively) the Tungid-shifted students.
    https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/anth...79973#p1879973
    I think Xi'an has much more intermediary "middle chinese/sinid" types being the ancient capital of China and everything than Shaanbei or Han settled regions of Inner Mongolia, which are still quite close to the Ancient North China types
    https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/anth...223-s5175.html
    I also find inland Chinese noses generally a bit meatier and wider.

    Yeah, NE Chinese and those from penisular Shandong like Yu Xiaotong typically have some slight mouth protrusion, though it's typically only the upper lip or just the mouth, giving them an overbite. It looks different to the Sudsinid variant where the entire jaw, specicially the lower jaw shifts forward.


    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    Maybe overall genotype =/= phenotype, and an individual/group's position on a PCA chart reflects the whole genome and not just the parts that influence physical appearance?

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to okarinaofsteiner For This Useful Post:

     Max_H (10-19-2020)

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    Quote Originally Posted by okarinaofsteiner View Post
    I'm not sure why there would be any significant differences between the G25 Sichuan Han and Chongqing Han populations in the first place. There may have been ethnolinguistic differences between Shu and Ba states during the pre-imperial era, but that would've been too long ago to affect the genetics of modern-day Sichuan Basin Han given all the demographic replacement and intermixing that would've taken place since.


    Hard to find concrete statements on the physical appearance on NW China Han. It's just a neverending stream of photo dumps and guesses on where people can "pass".
    Thanks, I am going through some of those now. Generally I am a bit skeptical of such phenotype inferences sometimes, and I actually agree that in most of NW China (with maybe the exception of Qinghai) there isn't that much West Eurasian admixture (rarely above 5%, sometimes 1-2%) to really affect phenotype. I think drift is a more likely explanation as well as variations in ancestry components. From what I know, Shanxi Han are amongst the closest populations (on a PCA) to Yellow river ancients along with other northern Hans (though affinity on a PCA doesn't always mean shared ancestry in that regard-ie the yellow river component might not be higher among Shanxi Han and instead be among Shandong or Henan Han)

    There certainly is some Siberian/Tungid influence in northern China but I think low given that ANE ancestry does not seem substantial.

    When it comes to Sichuan and Chonqing Han, I think it may be a sampling issue. But overall I've noticed Sichuan Han are slightly more northern than Chongqing Han. IIRC, the latter seem closer to Hunan Han while Sichuan Han show more affinities with Han from Hubei. I think it's fits well with re-population of these provinces by peoples from Hunan and Hubei during the late Ming/early Qing.

    Ba/Shu distinction seems to old to be relevant, like you said.


    Quote Originally Posted by okarinaofsteiner View Post
    Maybe overall genotype =/= phenotype, and an individual/group's position on a PCA chart reflects the whole genome and not just the parts that influence physical appearance?
    I think genotype is informative when it comes to appearance but perhaps not to this fine-scale of analysis.



    PS. I also think Liangdao might not be the best proxies for rice farmer ancestry. They seem too southern-shifted.

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