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Thread: ANCIENT DNA J1

  1. #1
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    Great Seljuk Empire Azerbaijan Yerevan Khanate Iran Safavid Empire Mongolia

    ANCIENT DNA J1

    Have heard about recent discovery of Ancient DNA from Mongolia. Does someone know which subclade is it?
    Most distant known ancestor Qaraqoyunlu Turkmen Emir Saad, owner of the Chuxur Saad (Erivan province), Chieftain of the Turkoman Saadlu tribe (Black Sheep Turkomans) 14th century. Buried here : Hidden Content


    Azerbaijani Turkic Project
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    Turkmenistan DNA Project
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  3. #2
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    The sample is from this paper https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...03.25.004606v1. The sample (I6221) was from the Afanasievo culture (labelled as Mongolia_Chalcolithic_1_Afanasievo), based on this I'd say that it could be part of the same cluster as the J1-M267 found in the sample from the Khvalynsk culture, though it still hasn't been confirmed what cluster that sample fell under.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  5. #3
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    This is unlikely to be under P58, as the General said J1 has also been found in Khvalynsk. This is probably going to be F1614, much like Satsurblia (and quite possibly the Mesolithic Karelians from Yuzhniy Oleni Ostrov & Popovo). An other alternative, much less convincing this time, would be CTS1460, as it is found in a small cluster from Kazakhstan, but this is likely to be of relatively recent Eastern Anatolian (in all likeliness Turkish or Armenian) origin.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  7. #4
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    It may not belong to well known clades because they mark it as J1 despite all other samples with enough covarage has more recent subclade like R1b1a1a2a2, C2b1a1, D1b1d1 ...
    And it actually has relatively good coverage.
    Last edited by alienalp; 03-26-2020 at 02:38 PM.

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  9. #5
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    We do have at least two P58 cases in the Jeong et al. paper though. One is dated to the MLBA (UUS001) and the other is Late Xiongnu (BRU001).
    Really wonder which branch we're dealing with here.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 03-26-2020 at 02:53 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  11. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    We do have at least two P58 cases in the Jeong et al. paper though. One is dated to the MLBA (UUS001) and the other is Late Xiongnu (BRU001).
    Really wonder which branch we're dealing with here.
    Did the Akkadians, Babylonians or Assyrians continue the same trade routes as the Sumerians into Central Asia? The MLBA sample might actually represent a descendant of an Eastern Semitic speaker or it could be an earlier split pre Z2331.
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>Y156527

    Other Y lines: 3x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J2a-S25258>SK1336, 5x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: E-V13> A7135, 6x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J1-Z2331>L829

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  13. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    Did the Akkadians, Babylonians or Assyrians continue the same trade routes as the Sumerians into Central Asia? The MLBA sample might actually represent a descendant of an Eastern Semitic speaker or it could be an earlier split pre Z2331.
    For the Akkadians and the Assyrians, I'm fairly certain they did in fact extend the Sumerians' earlier trade routes. That being said, I'm not certain this is tied to Semitic-speaking groups, as you said this could easily be xZ2331. Just updated the map of ancient P58 cases BTW.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 03-26-2020 at 03:25 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  15. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    For the Akkadians and the Assyrians, I'm fairly certain they did in fact extend the Sumerians' earlier trade routes. That being said, I'm not certain this is tied to Semitic-speaking groups, as you said this could easily be xZ2331. Just updated the map of ancient P58 cases BTW.
    For a P58 (xZ2331), I believe this branch might be a good candidate https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS3684/, there isn’t an East Asian sample on Yfull but i’m sure its possible seeing there’s a ZS3684* in India. When the raw data is released I’ll check it out.
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>Y156527

    Other Y lines: 3x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J2a-S25258>SK1336, 5x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: E-V13> A7135, 6x Great Grandfather on Maternal side: J1-Z2331>L829

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  17. #9
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    We have a pretty good phylogenetic frontier between Iranian J1 branches (Z2215+ L136-) and Southern Levantine/Arabian/Semitic branches (P58+). Iranian branches are Northern Middle Eastern from the Caspian Sea, Central Asia, Eastern Anatolia, Northern Iraq, Persian Gulf in general terms and the "Iranian" branches are older, bushy, basal and far more diverse than the "Semitic" branch.
    J1 FGC5987 to FGC6175 (188 new SNPs)
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  19. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Principe View Post
    For a P58 (xZ2331), I believe this branch might be a good candidate https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS3684/, there isn’t an East Asian sample on Yfull but i’m sure its possible seeing there’s a ZS3684* in India. When the raw data is released I’ll check it out.
    That's actually one of the branches that I had in mind, though it could also plausibly be tied to Semitic dispersals considering its TMRCA and distribution, it might even be a good candidate for an association with East Semitic (though I think there are better contenders under Z2331).
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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