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Thread: A dynamic 6,000-year genetic history of Eurasia’s Eastern Steppe

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    New or modified modern samples added on Global25
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wZr...CQncZWb8y/view

    Code:
    Afrikaner
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    Dong_Guizhou
    Dong_Hunan
    Dongxiang
    French_Pas-de-Calais
    French_Seine-Maritime
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    Han_Fujian
    Han_Guangdong
    Han_Henan
    Han_Hubei
    Han_Jiangsu
    Han_Shandong
    Han_Shanghai
    Han_Shanxi
    Han_Sichuan
    Han_Zhejiang
    Italian_Aosta_Valley
    Kazakh_China
    Kirghiz_China
    Li
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    Maonan
    Moldovan
    Moldovan_o
    Mulam
    Newar
    Qiang_Danba
    Qiang_Daofu
    Rai
    Salar
    Sherpa
    Tamang
    Tharu
    Tibetan_Chamdo
    Tibetan_Gangcha
    Tibetan_Gannan
    Tibetan_Lhasa
    Tibetan_Nagqu
    Tibetan_Shannan
    Tibetan_Shigatse
    Tibetan_Xinlong
    Tibetan_Xunhua
    Tibetan_Yajiang
    Tibetan_Yunnan
    Yugur
    Zapotec
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  3. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onur Dincer View Post
    The Türk (Göktürk) and Uyghur khaganates were steppe empires and were far from ethnically or linguistically homogeneous.
    Nowhere in my post did I claim the opposite, I simply referred to the classificiation done by the research team. One of the Turkic-period individuals is classified as a Chinese attendant of the Tang Dynasty, but there is no mention of Sogdians.

    Among the individuals with the highest eastern Eurasian affinity, two Türkic- and one Uyghur-period individual (ZAA004, ZAA002, OLN001. are indistinguishable from the Ulaanzuuk_SlabGrave cluster. Another individual (TUM001), who was recovered from the tomb ramp of an elite Türkic-era emissary of the Tang Dynasty, has a high proportion of Han463 (78.1±1.5%) (Fig. 3e) and especially Han_2000BP-related ancestry (84±1.5%) (Table S21). This male, buried with two dogs, was likely a Chinese attendant sacrificed to guard the tomb entrance (Ochir et al., 2013). The remaining 17 Türkic and Uyghur individuals show intermediate genetic profiles (Fig. 3e).

    Quote Originally Posted by Onur Dincer View Post
    Of the khagans and yabghus of the First Türk Khaganate none have names with clearly Turkic etymologies, but the ones whose names have clear etymologies have Iranian, specifically Sogdian, names instead. The nobility titles of those khaganates are also largely Iranian, specifically Sogdian, and a few are Mongolic (likely Ruanruan). The inscriptions written by the First Türk Khaganate are either in Sogdian or in a Mongolic language (likely Ruanruan).
    We know from the Chinese sources, Book of Zhou to be more precise, that the Türks (Tujue in Chinese) descend from the northern Xiongnu. Some Chinese sources claim that they were "mixed" nomads. Prior to the establishment of the First Türk Khaganate the Türks were blacksmith vassals of the Rouran realm. None of the Chinese sources indicates Sogdian origin. It's also worth noting that Sogdians were a sedentary people specialized in trade when the nomadic Türks replaced the Rourans as the ruling power in Mongolia.

    The relationship between the Türks and Sogdians reminds me of the relationship between the Seljuks and Persians. Many of the sultans of the Seljuk dynasty had Persian names, Persian and Islamic/Arabic titles were adopted, and Persian was the official language while Turkish was the language of the nomadic Oghuz/Turkmen tribes and military; despite the fact that the Seljuk dynasty was clearly of Oghuz stock. Likewise, Sogdians were very influential in the Türk Khaganate. They were often used as emissaries. Sogdian also served as one of the official languages for writing documents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Onur Dincer View Post
    The genetic profiles of the individuals tested from the Türk and Uyghur khaganates also suggest different ethnolinguistic backgrounds for the people living in those khaganates. It is highly unlikely that those tested individuals all spoke the same language or closely-related languages in the pre-modern steppe with so contrasting genetic results. Look at their PCA result (first two dimensions):
    Can we say the same for the Iron Age nomads who scatter along the West-East Eurasian cline? Even those from the same region and period show high diversity. The Sarmatian individuals have rather stable genetic profiles, but the Cimmerian and Saka/Scythian ones don't. For example, can we speculate about the possible linguistic barrier between the Saka individuals from the Kazakh steppe with 40-45% East Eurasian ancestry and the outlier Saka from the same region with much lower level of East Eurasian ancestry?

    I also think that some of those Türk-period individuals were originally non-Turkic speakers, but I wouldn't tell a lot about those individuals simply by looking at their Y-DNA haplogroups or East Eurasian levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Onur Dincer View Post
    I have added Y-DNA haplogroup info for the individuals from the Türk and Uyghur khaganates (the orange circles designate the former while the orange squares designate the latter, one orange triangle designates a very early medieval individual, the yellow symbols designate the later Khitan- and Mongol-era individuals, who are not the focus of my investigation) and in cases when they are female I have indicated that. I have not written the mtDNA haplogroups but instead added two vertical lines, those individuals from the Türk and Uyghur khaganates who are on the right side of the right vertical line exclusively have East Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups, those on the left side of the left vertical line exclusively have West Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups, and those in the middle either have West Eurasian or East Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups, so the correlation of the autosomal results with the mtDNA haplogroup results is high.
    The presence of West Eurasian lineages in Mongolia predates the Türk and Uyghur khaganates and is not related to Sogdians. The Xiongnu individuals also display a large variety of West Eurasian haplogroups. The other Xiongnu individuals (with Central Asian and East Asian genetic profiles) from Damgaard's paper are also R1b.
    Last edited by Alkaevli; 04-05-2020 at 03:59 PM.
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  5. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    Regarding that N1c2: Medieval Türk Shoroon Bumbagar (Türkic mausoleum) Bulgan Mongolia 660-768 calCE TUM001 N1c2 (N-L666), I would like to add that on the Chinese Ranhaer forum it was argued that ancient DNA has yielded N-M128 (under L666) belonging to Yarud dynasty (耶律氏).

    This is what Wikipeda tells about the Yarud: The Yarud clan (or Yelü clan; Khitan: Ei.ra.u.ud.svg, spelled ei.ra.ú.ud, pronounced Yarüd; Chinese: 耶律; pinyin: Yēlǜ) of the Khitan people assumed leadership of the Khitan state in 907 when Abaoji became khan of the Khitan people and maintained that leadership through the fall of the Liao dynasty in the 1120s. Even following this fall, members of the clan appear in history, most notably during the Mongols era of conquest in the thirteenth century.

    In this new paper, Khitan individuals were strongly Han-mixed.
    TUM001 is likely a sacrificed Chinese attendant. Both of the male Khitan samples in this paper on the other hand are J2a.

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  7. #84
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    The most important thing is that the Chinese State starts forming ca 1000 BC, probably with influence from the North:
    "Archaeological, anthropological and genetic evidence from Hengbei site consistently considered that Han Chinese is originated from Shanxi and neighboring regions, also called the Central Plain (Zhao et al., 2015b). And then Han Chinese population migrated southward with the Han-associated culture (Demic diffusion) and admixed with southern Chinese natives and formed the current patterns of genetic diversity distribution (Wen et al., 2004)” (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgene.2019.01045/full)"

    The interaction with the Eastern steppe intensifies during the Iron Age and is visible on both sides and is very intense with the Khitans as the quote from Ancient Encyclopedia shows: the Khitan adopted elements of Chinese government and culture.
    Last edited by Kristiina; 04-06-2020 at 05:30 AM.

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    A poster on Eurogenes is claiming that there is an M269* on the west shores of the Black Sea 'a millennia before Afansievo' in additionion to the pre-Yamnaya R1a Romanian. This wouldnt surprise me as there were steppe influences appearing there in archaeology since 4200BC. However as the poster is a well known moon howler, can anyone confirm this is true?

    Incidentally, said moon howler also hasnt let L151 in Afansievo spoil his out of the west theories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    A poster on Eurogenes is claiming that there is an M269* on the west shores of the Black Sea 'a millennia before Afansievo' in additionion to the pre-Yamnaya R1a Romanian. This wouldnt surprise me as there were steppe influences appearing there in archaeology since 4200BC. However as the poster is a well known moon howler, can anyone confirm this is true?

    Incidentally, said moon howler also hasnt let L151 in Afansievo spoil his out of the west theories.
    There are a grand total of 0 M269+ among farming cultures of Europe to the best of my knowledge, so a steppe hunter-gatherer interacting with the earliest farming cultures such as Cucuteni makes the most sense to me, and wouldn't be that unusual as you say that was going on for awhile before the farming settlements were eventually abandoned.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    maternal-gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    maternal-gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    The most important thing is that the Chinese State starts forming ca 1000 BC, probably with influence from the North:
    "Archaeological, anthropological and genetic evidence from Hengbei site consistently considered that Han Chinese is originated from Shanxi and neighboring regions, also called the Central Plain (Zhao et al., 2015b). And then Han Chinese population migrated southward with the Han-associated culture (Demic diffusion) and admixed with southern Chinese natives and formed the current patterns of genetic diversity distribution (Wen et al., 2004)” (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgene.2019.01045/full)"

    The interaction with the Eastern steppe intensifies during the Iron Age and is visible on both sides and is very intense with the Khitans as the quote from Ancient Encyclopedia shows: the Khitan adopted elements of Chinese government and culture.
    Yes indeed the Khitan were influenced by the Chinese for sure. The Khitan formed the Liao Dynasty that had strong Chinese influences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    A poster on Eurogenes is claiming that there is an M269* on the west shores of the Black Sea 'a millennia before Afansievo' in additionion to the pre-Yamnaya R1a Romanian. This wouldnt surprise me as there were steppe influences appearing there in archaeology since 4200BC. However as the poster is a well known moon howler, can anyone confirm this is true?
    I guess he means I2181, from Smyadovo, Bulgaria, ~4500 BC, who reputedly has R1b-M269(xZ2103).

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    I'm also interested in this R1 sample from the early Xiongnu. Is it a low quality sample? If so, I wonder what the odds are that this is just another R1b-PH155 or PH200 to go along with the other 2 early R1b(L278). Based on the haplogroups these early Xiongnu in Mongolia almost look to be intrusive from somewhere like modern Uzbekistan. Even the Chemurchek looks like Kazakh + Uzbek based on his admixture result.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    maternal-gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    maternal-gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    I guess he means I2181, from Smyadovo, Bulgaria, ~4500 BC, who reputedly has R1b-M269(xZ2103).
    Wasn't this part of the first Kurgan wave of Gimbutas?
    "The Kurgan Expansions"
    https://books.google.com/books?id=tzU3RIV2BWIC&pg=PA339

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