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Thread: R1b-L151 in Afanasievo: Good Y-DNA Call or Not?

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    Question R1b-L151 in Afanasievo: Good Y-DNA Call or Not?

    Regarding the new preprint, The Genomic Formation of Human Populations in East Asia:

    In online Table 1, sample I6222 is listed as R1b1a1a2a1a (R1b-L151). That sample is from the Afanasievo culture in Mongolia and dated 3316-2918 calBCE. The y-dna call appears in column S, which has the heading, "Y chromosome haplogroup (called only for males with 1240K data and only if >50000 autosomal SNPs hit)". That sounds good to me, but I am no geneticist.

    The hiccup appears in Column AD, under the heading "Qualitative Assessment". The entry for I6222 says "QUESTIONABLE", but the parenthetical explanation is "(mtmatchmax=0.861)", which refers to the "mtDNA match to consensus if >2x coverage" data in Column V.

    So, if the "questionable" part is mtDNA coverage, does that invalidate the y-dna call?

    The autosomal coverage is relatively low. According to Column P, "Average coverage on autosomal targets", it is 0.136. Okay, but evidently the y-dna call still meets the stated threshold, "males with 1240K data and only if >50000 autosomal SNPs hit".

    So, given all that, is the y-dna call good?

    I brought this up in the thread on this paper in the Ancient DNA subforum, but the topic was snowed under by all the excitement about many of the other samples, so I decided to bring my questions here, because they are specific to this one sample.

    Seen in the context of all the rumored ancient R1b-L51 stuff coming (soon?) from the steppe, perhaps it's not unreasonable to see this result as a foretaste of that.
    Last edited by rms2; 03-26-2020 at 04:20 PM.

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    Looks like same sample was used in this paper.
    A dynamic 6,000-year genetic history of Eurasia's Eastern Steppe

    The succeeding EBA Chemurchek culture (2750-1900 BCE), a ruminant dairying society
    200 (Wilkin et al., 2019) whose mortuary features include stone slabs and anthropomorphic stelae,
    201 has also been purportedly linked to WSH migrations (Kovalev and Erdenebaatar, 2009).
    202 Chemurchek graves are found throughout the Altai and in the Dzungar Basin in Xinjiang, China ....... Although minor genetic contributions from the Afanasievo-related groups cannot be excluded, Iranian-related ancestry is required for all fitting models, and this admixture is 217 estimated to have occurred 12±6 generations earlier
    Is R1b-L151 found in France?

    https://www.biorxiv.org/collection/genomics

    Kovalev A.A. The Great Migration of the Chemurchek People from France to the Altai in the Early 3rd Millenium
    https://www.academia.edu/4970951/Kov...11._P._1-58oks like same sa
    Yamnaya Orthodox-3000+/- years of barrow burial culture; containing either, red ochre,axe/dagger, horse remains.
    ydna and or mtdna under study z2109/U5a1
    R1b-Z2103+>R1b-Z2110+ -Yamnaya-Afanasievo -3300–2600 BC, Poltavka- Catacomb-2800–2200 BC, Csepel Island Hungary, Vucedol, Eastern Bell Beakers- Poland -Sambrozec 2800–1800 BCE, Karagash-Khazakhstan 3018-2887 BC-Iran Hajji_Firuz I2327 , Rise 397 Kapan LBA, Armenia , Pokrovka Sarmatians 200 BCE. R1b-Z2109 Sintashta

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    I remember that old paper (2011). I think the idea of a French origin goes back to the old idea that R1b-M269 came from western Europe. It wasn't based on any real evidence.

    Looks like any R1b-M269 in Chemurchek is due to close contact with Afanasievo rather than some strange migration from France.

    There's plenty of R1b-L151 in France, but it's all P312 and U106, etc.

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    Notice that in Column G, "Confidence of archaeological and chronological contextualization for the genetic data for this individual", the entry for I6222 is the following:

    Confident - The genetic analysis was done on a different individuals[sic] from the sample used to produce the direct 14C date (published in Wilkins et al. Nature Ecology and Evolution 2020). However, the 14C date matches to the Afanasievo period, and this individual clusters genetically with previously reported individuals from the Afansievo[sic] culture from the Altai region of Russia, providing confidence in the cultural assignment.
    Last edited by rms2; 03-26-2020 at 05:09 PM.

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    So, in my inexpert opinion, I think it's a good y-dna call.

    Convince me I'm wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    So, in my inexpert opinion, I think it's a good y-dna call.

    Convince me I'm wrong.
    Isn't 3316-2918 calBCE close to the date of formation of L151?

    Was the status of the Darra-i-Kur sample's R1b-L151 confirmed?
    Darra.I.Kur_d H2a R1b1a1a2a1a Darra_i_kur_MBA 2850-2460 calBCE Afghanistan

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Isn't 3316-2918 calBCE close to the date of formation of L151?
    Yes, but ancient samples have the potential to correct current age estimates.

    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Was the status of the Darra-i-Kur sample's R1b-L151 confirmed?
    Darra.I.Kur_d H2a R1b1a1a2a1a Darra_i_kur_MBA 2850-2460 calBCE Afghanistan
    Don't know, but pretty obviously this one stands or falls on its own merits, like any ancient sample.

    Saw your newest post here.

    Looks pretty good up through L52 (one step upstream of L151).

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    That surprises me very much if R1b M73 was not expected, L51 is not mainly in Central Europe? Because L23 is "old steppe", so to speak, Yamnaya
    Alain Dad
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    So is R1b1a1a2a1a now the longhand for R1b-L52 rather than R1b-L151?

    Such switcheroos and updates are good reasons, it seems to me, to quit using the longhand and go with the shorthand, i.e., the major haplogroup plus the SNP furthest downstream.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    That surprises me very much if R1b M73 was not expected, L51 is not mainly in Central Europe? Because L23 is "old steppe", so to speak, Yamnaya
    Apparently the bulk of R1b-L51 went west; because it's not a major lineage very far east nowadays.

    But it was absent west of the steppe before the 3rd millennium BC and the arrival of steppe pastoralists.

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