Page 17 of 23 FirstFirst ... 71516171819 ... LastLast
Results 161 to 170 of 230

Thread: R1b-L151 in Afanasievo: Good Y-DNA Call or Not?

  1. #161
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    13,263
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-M269
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Why not? Mal'ta Boy was found near Lake Baikal.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     Revmac (10-24-2020)

  3. #162
    Registered Users
    Posts
    260
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    1/2 Italian, 1/2 Armenian
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152
    mtDNA (M)
    H5a

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Why not? Mal'ta Boy was found near Lake Baikal.
    Its not guaranteed he is ancestral to modern R lineages. There's also a big time gap between Mal'ta's R* and L51. Plus don't we have aDNA from Mongolia after Mal'ta? Pretty sure the population of Mongolia was heavy in Q lineages and East Asian proper Ydnas. And pretty East Eurasian on the maternal side as well.

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to davit For This Useful Post:

     Helves (10-24-2020),  Revmac (10-24-2020)

  5. #163
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    13,263
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-M269
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by davit View Post
    Its not guaranteed he is ancestral to modern R lineages. There's also a big time gap between Mal'ta's R* and L51. Plus don't we have aDNA from Mongolia after Mal'ta? Pretty sure the population of Mongolia was heavy in Q lineages and East Asian proper Ydnas. And pretty East Eurasian on the maternal side as well.
    Well, it's guaranteed he isn't, because he was about 7 years old when he died.

    The point is that we shouldn't be surprised by an Asian or far east European origin for R1 (and his offspring R1a and R1b).

    Geez.

  6. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     ArmandoR1b (10-25-2020),  peternorth (10-24-2020),  razyn (10-24-2020),  Revmac (10-24-2020)

  7. #164
    Registered Users
    Posts
    260
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    1/2 Italian, 1/2 Armenian
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152
    mtDNA (M)
    H5a

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Well, it's guaranteed he isn't, because he was about 7 years old when he died.

    The point is that we shouldn't be surprised by an Asian or far east European origin for R1 (and his offspring R1a and R1b).

    Geez.
    Well it still remains to be seen if the broader population he was a part of was ancestral either.

    Nobody argued against an Asian or far east European origin for R1 or even R1a or R1b or said it would be surprising. Just against a Mongolian origin of L51 (and probably M269 and L23). An argument that was likely made by the presence of pre-L51 in Afanasievo. Far Eastern Europe, North Central Asia/West Siberia and Mongolia were all home to different populations by the time L51 was born anyways so yea an origin of L51 would be pretty surprising east of Europe.

    Sheesh.

  8. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to davit For This Useful Post:

     Helves (10-24-2020),  Revmac (10-24-2020)

  9. #165
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,090
    Sex
    Location
    UK
    Nationality
    Welsh
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-DF49
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c2e

    European Union
    Quote Originally Posted by davit View Post
    Well it still remains to be seen if the broader population he was a part of was ancestral either.

    Nobody argued against an Asian or far east European origin for R1 or even R1a or R1b or said it would be surprising. Just against a Mongolian origin of L51 (and probably M269 and L23). An argument that was likely made by the presence of pre-L51 in Afanasievo. Far Eastern Europe, North Central Asia/West Siberia and Mongolia were all home to different populations by the time L51 was born anyways so yea an origin of L51 would be pretty surprising east of Europe.

    Sheesh.
    But I don't think anybody is seriously using this to argue that point, however it's more evidence in favour of an origin in Eastern Europe.

  10. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to jdean For This Useful Post:

     ArmandoR1b (10-25-2020),  GoldenHind (10-24-2020),  Revmac (10-25-2020),  rms2 (10-24-2020)

  11. #166
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    13,263
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-M269
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by davit View Post
    Well it still remains to be seen if the broader population he was a part of was ancestral either.
    Mal'ta Boy was related to the ancestor of all Y-DNA R men, since he himself belonged to y-haplogroup R. That is the "broader population" to which he belonged: y-haplogroup R. In addition, Mal'ta Boy lived and died about 24k years ago, when there weren't a whole lot of other people around.

    Quote Originally Posted by davit View Post
    Nobody argued against an Asian or far east European origin for R1 or even R1a or R1b or said it would be surprising . . .
    No one said they did, but there were a couple of posts that carried a tone of surprise at finding any kind of R1b so far east.
    Last edited by rms2; 10-24-2020 at 09:22 PM.

  12. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     ArmandoR1b (10-25-2020),  jdean (10-24-2020),  Revmac (10-25-2020)

  13. #167
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,090
    Sex
    Location
    UK
    Nationality
    Welsh
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-DF49
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c2e

    European Union
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    FTDNA has not formally analyzed (to put on haplotree) the paper's L52 sample in Afanasievo. I asked them to look at it and they ran their analysis and said they will call it R-P310 (where L52 sits). They feel R-P310 is correct. They also say the sample is negative for two of the three R-L151 equivalents. The third is a no call.

    An R-P310* person is pretty rare today so I don't think there was a lab person contaminating it.

    As an aside, the joke was made that they wished all the lab technicians that do Y analysis were women. That would eliminate a Y chromosome mix-up error.
    Presumably they're calling it R-P310 because that's what they call that level ?

    Any idea what SNP/s were called

  14. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to jdean For This Useful Post:

     ArmandoR1b (10-25-2020),  Revmac (10-25-2020),  rms2 (10-25-2020)

  15. #168
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    2,090
    Sex
    Location
    UK
    Nationality
    Welsh
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-DF49
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c2e

    European Union
    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    Presumably they're calling it R-P310 because that's what they call that level ?

    Any idea what SNP/s were called
    Hmm seems Pribislav disagrees with FTDNA slightly

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to jdean For This Useful Post:

     rms2 (10-25-2020)

  17. #169
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    13,263
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-M269
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Ted Kandell posted the following on the YFull Facebook group:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Kandell
    The origin of R1b1a2a2a1-L51, the major "European" Y clade?
    Sample SHT001, from the Afanasievo culture dated 3112-2918 calBCE from the Shatar Chuluu site in Erdenetsogt, MONGOLIA is R-L51 (L51+, 2 derived reads in 1240K capture array sequencing and 1 derived read in separate shotgun sequencing), but he has one ancestral read for the R-L52 equivalent Y410/E207 in 1240K sequencing. He also has 1 derived read for the R-L52 SNP PF6544/CTS7650/FGC44/S1164 in shotgun sequencing, but this is a C to T transition and seems likely to be the result of DNA damage.

    Therefore, he seems to be a "pre-R-L51".
    He also has only one novel SNP with more than 2 reads. He's right at the root of R-L51.
    This may change the YFull tMRCA of R-L51 and R-L52.

    This is the very earliest R-L51 ever found so far. As old or older than Yamnaya. No early R-L51s have been found in Europe or the western Steppe. The horse-herding Afanasievo culture migrated to the far east of the Steppe before Yamnaya arose, so it seems that R-L51 originated well to the east or north of Yamnaya. This is why early R-L51 hasn't been seen so far in Europe.
    The earliest "European modal" mtDNA U5a1 on the Mongolian steppe was also just found at the Afanasievo site of Chatar Chuluu in Mongolia:
    https://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi...

    Did anyone ever expect to find the earliest R-L51 in East Asia and not anywhere in Europe, like "Doggerland" (the English Channel), the popular theory about 12 years ago?

    https://doi.org/10.1101/2020.03.25.008078

    The two BAM files (already submitted to YFull):
    http://ftp.sra.ebi.ac.uk/.../ERR3828...T001.B0101.bam
    http://ftp.sra.ebi.ac.uk/.../ERR3828...1.B0102.ss.bam

    The location of Shatar Chuluu in Erdenetsogt, Mongolia:
    https://www.google.com/.../data=!4m5!3m4...

    https://bioone.org/.../humanbiol.../...g-z2-1_213.jpg

  18. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     DgidguBidgu (10-25-2020),  jdean (10-25-2020),  Kopfjäger (10-25-2020),  MitchellSince1893 (10-25-2020),  parasar (10-25-2020),  Piquerobi (10-24-2020)

  19. #170
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,449
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    FTDNA has not formally analyzed (to put on haplotree) the paper's L52 sample in Afanasievo. I asked them to look at it and they ran their analysis and said they will call it R-P310 (where L52 sits). They feel R-P310 is correct. They also say the sample is negative for two of the three R-L151 equivalents. The third is a no call.

    An R-P310* person is pretty rare today so I don't think there was a lab person contaminating it.

    As an aside, the joke was made that they wished all the lab technicians that do Y analysis were women. That would eliminate a Y chromosome mix-up error.
    P310 wasn't the only L52 level SNP that the sample is derived for. This is the result of my analysis of SHT001.B0102.ss.bam

    pos marker_name haplogroup mutation anc der reads called_perc called_base state
    8502236 L51/M412/PF6536/S167 R1b1a1b1a G->A G A 1 100 A D
    18907236 P310/PF6546/S129 R1b1a1b1a1 A->C A C 1 100 C D
    9084870 PF6540/YSC0000082 R1b1a1b1a1 G->T G T 1 100 T D
    17589518 CTS7650/FGC44/PF6544 R1b1a1b1a1 C->T C T 1 100 T D
    18248698 P311/PF6545/S128 R1b1a1b1a1 A->G A G 3 100 G D
    Last edited by ArmandoR1b; 10-25-2020 at 03:48 AM.

  20. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to ArmandoR1b For This Useful Post:

     jdean (10-25-2020),  parasar (10-25-2020),  Piquerobi (10-25-2020),  rms2 (10-25-2020)

Page 17 of 23 FirstFirst ... 71516171819 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. What happened to Afanasievo
    By Censored in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 79
    Last Post: 10-20-2020, 11:54 PM
  2. Replies: 13
    Last Post: 11-20-2019, 12:04 AM
  3. Current R-L151 Figures from the FTDNA database
    By MitchellSince1893 in forum R1b-P312
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 11-27-2018, 01:36 PM
  4. Replies: 21
    Last Post: 03-08-2018, 01:12 AM
  5. Replies: 50
    Last Post: 12-15-2013, 03:18 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •