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Thread: 1 of the 7 beauties: blond and brown eyes or dark and blue/gray eyes!?

  1. #31
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    Baltic blond hair brown eyes


    Razib Khan:
    In Living Races of Man Carleton S. Coon1 asserted offhand that the Baltic region exhibits a relatively high frequency of blondes who also happen to have brown eyes. In contrast, Ireland is characterized by dark-haired blue-eyed individuals (especially western Ireland). The latter assertion I find plausible, though it must be admitted that the majority of northern Europeans have dark hair and blue eyes, so it would not be implausible if the intersection of the two traits in many areas exceeded 50%. But, in any case, I don’t know much about the Baltic region, so I set about to see if I could find evidence of the brown-eyed blonde

    I fond this Lithuanian modelling agency which has a facebook with a decent amount of information. I could puzzle out the terms for “blue,” “green” and “brown” (for eye color pretty quickly), though the many variations in hair color I simply compressed into “blonde” and “dark” categories. Here is the pivot table that excel popped out for me (I surveyed only the adult female models, someone else can check out the dudes if they are so inclined):Eye colorBlondeDarkTotalsBlue231336Brown41115Green1111 32Totals383573

    I don’t see a high frequency of brown-eyed blondes, and when I was going through the facebook I was actually surprised at how many very dark women there were employed by the agency (see here). I had a hard time keeping track of the names, so perhaps they were Russian (though the woman I linked to just right now is Lithuanian if her name is any clue, check with google if you don’t believe me). As you can see, the blonde women in fact had the lowest number with brown eyes, an indication of either population substructure, or, more likely as far as I’m concerned, a genetic assocation between the alleles that code for hair and eye color (MC1R is implicated in pigmentation in general, but there are many, many, other loci, one recent count suggests 120, though many of those will likely be involved in regulation of MC1R).
    Funnelbeaker influence
    As posted earlier the definitions of blond and brown eyes is difficult. But based on the available sources the percentages in the Dutch and Danish population are between 4%-8% of blond and brown eyed. That's indeed not high frequent but still significant. The available sources about for example Scotland show that it's there significant less.

    Like with the blond haired in general I suspect a relationship with the funnel beakers in stead of the Baltic HG. The reasons? I see in the genetiker list under the Funnelbeaker heir Globular Amphora a blond majority, with even a blond/brown eyed sample:

    GAC genetiker:


    TRB genetiker:


    And Narva Baltic HG is much more WHG like, so dark brown or black hair and blue eyes:



    The SHG were a little bit preluding the GAC/TRB people, Günther (2018):

    It will be interesting to see how common such variants were among Mesolithic groups as more genome sequence data become available. The genomic data further allowed us to study the physical appearance of SHGs (S8 Text); for instance, they show a combination of eye color varying from blue to light brown and light skin pigmentation. This is strikingly different from the WHGs—who have been suggested to have the specific combination of blue eyes and dark skin [18,20,21,23] and EHGs—who have been suggested to be brown-eyed and light-skinned.
    This comes in conflict with the assumptions of Peter Frost. He states that from the Baltic to Siberia the lightning of hair and eyes began:

    We still need more data, but it seems that the current European phenotype arose during the last ice age, some 10 to 20 thousand years ago, among hunting people who inhabited the plains stretching from the Baltic to Siberia. Their women were subjected to strong sexual selection for two reasons. First, men were fewer in number. In a hunting society, male mortality increases as hunters cover longer distances, and mean hunting distance is longest in open northern environments. Second, polygyny was less frequent. Since men provided almost all the food, the effort of providing for a second wife and her children was impossible for all but the best hunters. With few polygynous men, and fewer men altogether, women were in a tough market — too many competing for too few. Even slight improvements in attractiveness could make a big difference.
    Moltala Genetiker:


    That's weird because we saw that the Baltic HG had a WHG kind of mix, dark hair and blue eyes! Only SHG (somewhat) and first of all the Neolithic cultures were clearly blond and mostly blue eyed. For example Neolithic Greece had for the most part blond hair with brown eyes.

    Neolithic Greece Genetiker:



    So the concept as Peter Frost has states could well be at stake. Because it seems like if the Baltic HG were not (as assumed!) the blond frontrunners but the Neolithic cultures, especially TRB/GAC. But these cultures were not typical HG cultures, so

    Their women were subjected to strong sexual selection for two reasons. First, men were fewer in number. In a hunting society, male mortality increases as hunters cover longer distances, and mean hunting distance is longest in open northern environments. Second, polygyny was less frequent. Since men provided almost all the food, the effort of providing for a second wife and her children was impossible for all but the best hunters. With few polygynous men, and fewer men altogether, women were in a tough market — too many competing for too few.
    ...isn't the case along TRB/HG! It can be a little bit the case along the SHG (but not as heavily as along the GAC/TRB ), but it's is not in the Baltic not in Northern Norway (Steigen) is the case, there we can find all dark haired HG's!

    So I guess Frost has to revise his assumptions.....Don't we have to focus on the TRB/GAC cultures?
    Last edited by Finn; 04-01-2020 at 02:30 PM.

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Light eyes and brunette hair is pretty well the default here in Ireland. Id guess over 50% of the population has that combo. Blonde hair and brown eyes, that would be incredibly rare combo here. I can only think of one person I know who has it. Blonde hair almost always goes with blue eyes here. Red hair almost always goes with light eyes here too. I find it weird when I see redheads with dark eyes (though you do see that combo among Scots IMO).

    Personally, though ive no knowledge of genetic mechanisms for it, I think eye colour usually goes most with skin tone, not hair colour. Light eyes seem to go with fair skin while dark eyed people seem here to go with the slightly more sallow/olive skinned minority.
    If Günther e.a. (2018) and genetiker are right:
    SHG: eye color varying from blue to light brown, hair varying from mostly blond to dark, with some red, light skin pigmentation.

    WHG and East Baltic HG (Narva): eye color is blue, hair dark, dark skin

    EHG: eye color brown, hair dark, light skin.

    Steppe pastoralist:eye color mostly brown, hair brown, light skin.

    The spread of blond hair in Northern Europe:

    1.blond hair first emerged among the SHGs;

    2. the spread was continued during the neolithic period, especially the funnel beakers (/globular amphora) spread blond hair all over Europe. Funnel cups were a mixture of Ertebølle / SHG and EEF. The blond-haired impulse may have come not only from the SHG but also from the EEF, according to Genetiker there are several samples from Neolithic Greece with blond hair!;

    3.the arrival of the Steppe Pastoralist was pre-eminently a moment of sexual selection, if we can believe prof Kristiansen, then the arrival of the Steppe Pastoralist often meant that the funnel beaker men were murdered and the women 'were taken hostage.' This ensures that from that moment on, the blonde hair enjoyed increasing popularity in the entire former Funnelbeaker area;

    4. the Bell Beaker (Steppe Pastoralist dash Funnelbeaker) showed a mixed pattern;

    5. what s is till a miracle to me are the east Baltics nowadays it's mostly very fair and blue/ gray eyed, but what caused this because the Baltic HG/ Narva were mostly WHG like so dark hair, blue eyes but different from WHG with light skin.....so what caused the shift to blond hair?

    Feel free to comment. Thanks in advance!
    Last edited by Finn; 04-02-2020 at 08:22 PM.

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  5. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    1.blond hair first emerged among the SHGs;
    And yet the earliest individual known to have carried the allele associated with blond hair in Europeans, so far, is Afontova Gora 3, dated to around 16,130-15,749 BC, from the Yenisei river, in Siberia.

    Afontova Gora is a Late Upper Paleolithic Siberian complex of archaeological sites located on the left bank of the Yenisei River near the city of Krasnoyarsk, Russia. Afontova Gora has cultural and genetic links to the people from Mal'ta-Buret'.

    Afontova Gora 3

    In 2014, more human fossil remains were discovered at Afontova Gora II during salvage excavation before the construction of a new bridge over the Yenesei River.

    The remains belonged to two different females: the atlas of an adult female and the mandible and five lower teeth of a teenage girl (Afontova Gora 3) estimated to be around 14–15 years old. Initially, the new findings were presumed to be roughly contemporaneous with Afontova Gora 2. In 2017, direct AMS dating revealed that Afontova Gora 3 is dated to around 16,130-15,749 BC (14,710±60 BP).

    In a 2016 study, researchers determined that Afontova Gora 2, Afontova Gora 3, and Mal'ta 1 (Mal'ta boy) shared common descent and were clustered together in a Mal'ta cluster. Genetically, Afontova Gora 3 is not closer to Afontova Gora 2 when compared to Mal'ta 1.

    Phenotypic analysis shows that Afontova Gora 3 carries the derived rs12821256 allele associated with blond hair color in Europeans, making Afontova Gora 3 the earliest individual known to carry this derived allele.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afontova_Gora

    "The derived allele of the KITLG SNP rs12821256 that is associated with and likely causal for blond hair in Europeans, is present in one hunter-gatherer from each of Samara, Motala, and Ukraine (I0124, I0014 and I1763), as well as several later individuals with Steppe ancestry. Since the allele is found in populations with EHG but not WHG ancestry, it suggests that its origin is in the Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) population. Consistent with this, we observe that the earliest known individual with the derived allele (supported by two reads) is the ANE individual Afontova Gora 3, which is directly dated to 16130-15749 cal BCE (14710±60 BP, MAMS 27186: a previously unpublished date that we newly report here). We cannot determine the status of rs12821256 in Afontova Gora 2 and MA-1 due to lack of sequence coverage at this SNP"
    https://static-content.springer.com/...MOESM2_ESM.pdf
    Last edited by Piquerobi; 04-02-2020 at 09:16 PM.

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  7. #34
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    Another factor is degree of sun. Ive noticed that brunette people from the isles who go to sunny hot areas like Australia will see their hair lighten considerably from darker browns to light mousey browns and mousey people will go dirty fair. I have mid brown hair (not either dark nor mousey) and ive seen it go within a month to a light mousey brown during rare hot summers where ive been outside a lot. My normally fairly dark eyebrows kind of go ginger in heatwaves too!

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    One difference that may have fed blondism into the future Germanic zone may have been the that the TRB farmers and also GAC had themselves absorbed north/north-eastern European hunter DNA. A key difference between northern Europe west of the Rhine area and the part east of the Rhine was that the initial waves of post-glacial hunters spread from west to east and north where they led to the early Mesolithic Maglemosian type hunters. They even made it to the isles. The later Mesolithic (seems to have included a more eastern ANE microblade using element which did not spread further west than the Rhine or into the isles. This is also true of the pottery Mesolithic groups of the north European plain. So, I think the hunter substrate that would have been absorbed would have differred depending on what side of the Rhine area the farmers settled.

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  11. #36
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    I have dark-ish brown hair and blue eyes, a combination of brown hair (of varying shades) and blue eyes (also of varying shades) is seen in almost every adult member of my family as far as I know of (the kids are often blonde, although my half-Spanish niece and nephew have dark hair from an early age). My hair sometimes looks almost black and sometimes it looks almost medium brown - it tends to lighten in the summer. I tend to tan fairly well but can easily get sunburnt.

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  13. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    One difference that may have fed blondism into the future Germanic zone may have been the that the TRB farmers and also GAC had themselves absorbed north/north-eastern European hunter DNA. A key difference between northern Europe west of the Rhine area and the part east of the Rhine was that the initial waves of post-glacial hunters spread from west to east and north where they led to the early Mesolithic Maglemosian type hunters. They even made it to the isles. The later Mesolithic (seems to have included a more eastern ANE microblade using element which did not spread further west than the Rhine or into the isles. This is also true of the pottery Mesolithic groups of the north European plain. So, I think the hunter substrate that would have been absorbed would have differred depending on what side of the Rhine area the farmers settled.
    Absolutely the Funnelbeakers (TRB ) were for the most part Ertebølle HG, so SHG!

    The Funnelbeaker spread about 3400 BC from the "South Baltic" to the whole North German Plain incl. the NE Dutch area.
    They displaced the Swifterbant population in the NE Dutch area. The Swifterbant people were, we have no samples just indices, very WHG like (blue eyes, dark skin, dark hair).

    But it's remarkable that SHG and TRB had a very different pigmentation compared to the east Baltic Narva culture, the Narva people seem to be blue eyed, light skinned but had (at least the available samples) all dark hair!!!

    This is the TRB/ Ertebølle expansion (3400 BC) to the NE Netherlands (and the whole North German plain), this is until today the most blond part of the Netherlands and Germany....this can't be a coincidence!









    And

    The blond hair hotspots:

    Last edited by Finn; 04-03-2020 at 08:41 PM.

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    Dark brown hair and green eyes with some greenish brown/yellow central heterochromia. I had one grandparent light eyed (blue/gray eyes) and the others were (or are) brown eyed. My two parents are "brown" eyed (my mother has dark hazel eyes however). I guess they carry some blue alleles though I've the lightest eyes in my close family.







    The green shade is in reality a blue-green mix :





    A bit like this color :



    And indeed on some light they can appear as blue :


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