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Thread: Albanian and Vlach tribes in Herzegovina

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Dukagjin being a Goth ruler in Albania seems pretty strange, would love some sources if anyone knows of any.
    Eqrem bej Vlora only mentions that a story of Gothic origin was recorded by a Byzantine chronicler in the 7th century, however no actual reference to the source is made. Same goes for the story made by Ottoman chroniclers in the 15th century, who claimed that the family were descended from "Germans". I personally have not found these sources online.

    The earliest mention of a member of this family was in 1281 where a certain Gjin Tanushi carrying the title of duke was mentioned (ducam Ginium Tanuschium Albanensem). He had two sons; Gjergj Dukagjini and Antanazius (Tanush?) Dukagjini. Sources state that he was killed by the locals of Ndėrfanda (Mirdita). A connection between the Dukagjini and Mirditė makes sense given that the oldest branch of the family was based around Mirdita, Zadrima and Lezha, as well as the fact that they used the second name Perlati which clearly suggests a connection to the village of Perlat in Mirditė. https://www.researchgate.net/publica...haracteristics
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 04-05-2020 at 06:26 PM.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Eqrem bej Vlora only mentions that a story of Gothic origin was recorded by a Byzantine chronicler in the 7th century, however no actual reference to the source is made. Same goes for the story made by Ottoman chroniclers in the 15th century, who claimed that the family were descended from "Germans". I personally have not found these sources online.

    The earliest mention of a member of this family was in 1281 where a certain Gjin Tanushi carrying the title of duke was mentioned (ducam Ginium Tanuschium Albanensem). He had two sons; Gjergj Dukagjini and Antanazius (Tanush?) Dukagjini.Sources state that he was killed by the locals of Ndėrfanda (Mirdita). A connection between the Dukagjini and Mirditė makes sense given that the oldest branch of the family was based around Mirdita, Zadrima and Lezha, as well as the fact that they used the second name Perlati which clearly suggests a connection to the village of Perlat in Mirditė. https://www.researchgate.net/publica...haracteristics
    We need to find this source somehow:

    "" Ragusan sources, published by Makushev in "Research on the Chronicle of Ragusa," (12) "

    If dukagjini nad "Arbania" is mentioned in 690 then we need to verify or falsify asap and change wiki which says albanians first appear on 11th century.

    I also agree its weird something doesnt add up

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  5. #13
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    We targeted those Perlati from Mirdite for that specific reason and interestingly enough they are R1b-Z2705 (Most likely Y32147+).

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  7. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by trdbr1234 View Post
    Really interesting. Is there any detailed article or publications about them?
    I'm not sure I will have to look into it in more detail.

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    The Pjesivci tribe of Montenegro may be of at least partial Španje origins. They pretty much all belong to a certain subclade of J2a-M92 which is likely of Pre-Slavic origins in the Balkans but they claim to descend in the paternal line from a Serbian nobleman named Bogdan Potolic.

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  11. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    The Pjesivci tribe of Montenegro may be of at least partial Španje origins. They pretty much all belong to a certain subclade of J2a-M92 which is likely of Pre-Slavic origins in the Balkans but they claim to descend in the paternal line from a Serbian nobleman named Bogdan Potolic.
    Well, the Pjesivci only claim half of that. They claim they come from a Bogdan Potolic, but the idea that he was a Serbian nobleman was an idea in the late 19th and early 20th century by Serbian anthropologists like Erdeljanovic. Quoting the actual folk tradition from Zeljko Musovic, "Genetika, Istorija i Bajke":

    "Po predanju, predak Gornjih Pjesivaca, knez (a, ponegdje i vojvoda) Bogdan Potolic je dosao iz (danas albanskog) plemena Gruda “poslije Kosova”. Takode je zabiljezena i pri-
    ca da su “bila dva brata, Bogdan i Grujica”, i da su od Grujice Grude, a od Bogdana Pjesivci.

    Istorijska veza (gornjih) Pjesivaca i Gruda je postojala i u XVII/XVIII vijeku. Tada se u turski grad Niksic doselilo nekoliko uglednih familija iz ovog albanskog “fisa”. Ti ljudi i Pjesivci su se, po Petra Sobajicu (Niksic, 66), “svojatali” i uzajamno pomagali i u miru i tokom odredenih sukoba u gradu."

    So, in the oral tradition Bogdan of Pjesivci was related to Gruda and this tradition between the two tribes existed as a semi-historical tradition which facilitated cooperation between the two groups in Niksic, an area out of their respective territories.

    The Pjesivci also claim than when their ancestor settled in their area he found the Spanji, a non-Slavic people and the Luzani, a half-Slavic population. It'd be interesting to see how this tradition is reflected in any Y DNA results.
    Last edited by Maleschreiber; 04-08-2020 at 01:25 AM.

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  13. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleschreiber View Post
    Well, the Pjesivci only claim half of that. They claim they come from a Bogdan Potolic, but the idea that he was a Serbian nobleman was an idea in the late 19th and early 20th century by Serbian anthropologists like Erdeljanovic. Quoting the actual folk tradition from Zeljko Musovic, "Genetika, Istorija i Bajke":

    "Po predanju, predak Gornjih Pjesivaca, knez (a, ponegdje i vojvoda) Bogdan Potolic je dosao iz (danas albanskog) plemena Gruda “poslije Kosova”. Takode je zabiljezena i pri-
    ca da su “bila dva brata, Bogdan i Grujica”, i da su od Grujice Grude, a od Bogdana Pjesivci.

    Istorijska veza (gornjih) Pjesivaca i Gruda je postojala i u XVII/XVIII vijeku. Tada se u turski grad Niksic doselilo nekoliko uglednih familija iz ovog albanskog “fisa”. Ti ljudi i Pjesivci su se, po Petra Sobajicu (Niksic, 66), “svojatali” i uzajamno pomagali i u miru i tokom odredenih sukoba u gradu."

    So, in the oral tradition Bogdan of Pjesivci was related to Gruda and this tradition between the two tribes existed as a semi-historical tradition which facilitated cooperation between the two groups in Niksic, an area out of their respective territories.

    The Pjesivci also claim than when their ancestor settled in their area he found the Spanji, a non-Slavic people and the Luzani, a half-Slavic population. It'd be interesting to see how this tradition is reflected in any Y DNA results.
    Wow this is actually really interesting. I did not know about a tradition of Pjesivci possibly being related to Gruda. As far as I know the Pjesivci and the Gruda belong to different Y-DNA haplogroups though which likely rules out any common male line ancestry unless there is a section of Gruda that is J2a-M92 that has not been found yet or went extinct. Pjesivci tribal territory of course is located between Niksic and Danilovgrad and I know that they fought with the Turks of Niksic a lot over the centuries.

  14. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    Wow this is actually really interesting. I did not know about a tradition of Pjesivci possibly being related to Gruda. As far as I know the Pjesivci and the Gruda belong to different Y-DNA haplogroups though which likely rules out any common male line ancestry unless there is a section of Gruda that is J2a-M92 that has not been found yet or went extinct. Pjesivci tribal territory of course is located between Niksic and Danilovgrad and I know that they fought with the Turks of Niksic a lot over the centuries.
    As far as I know, no J2a-S8230 has been found in Grudė or the surrounding region. As of now, the majority of the Gruda seem to belong to J2b-Y82533 with the remaining families being R-Z2705>BY38894 and E-BY168279. The story of relation between the Pješivci and Gruda was likely pushed in order to promote cooperation, as Maleschreiber suggested.

    However, the Pješivci share J2a-S8230 with some families from the Cuce tribe which is located to the southwest of Pješivci. The Cuce themselves seem to be heterogeneous with a number of families claiming origin from different regions.
    Ydna: J1>P58>YSC234>ZS241

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

    Mtdna: T1a1l

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  16. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    As far as I know, no J2a-S8230 has been found in Grudė or the surrounding region. As of now, the majority of the Gruda seem to belong to J2b-Y82533 with the remaining families being R-Z2705>BY38894 and E-BY168279. The story of relation between the Pješivci and Gruda was likely pushed in order to promote cooperation, as Maleschreiber suggested.

    However, the Pješivci share J2a-S8230 with some families from the Cuce tribe which is located to the southwest of Pješivci. The Cuce themselves seem to be heterogeneous with a number of families claiming origin from different regions.
    Yes very likely I agree. Yup a number of men from Upper Cuce that have tested so far. The Krivopapici bratstva is J2a-S8230 to which the famous tribal leader Milos Krivokapic belonged to came from Upper Cuce. They are quite close to the Pješivci even on STR haplotypes.
    Last edited by J Man; 04-09-2020 at 12:12 AM.

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    Well, considering that this thread should also point out and analyze the presence of Vlachs in Hercegovina (consequently their Genetic impact in the modern areas in question !), i took a look at the Defter of the Sandžak of Hercegovina year 1477 !!

    - https://vdocuments.site/alicic-s-ahm...-1477-god.html

    In this page you can find some very useful maps of the region, also some Links that contains the complet list of settlments in Rumelia registered by Ottomans in 1533, also the names of the Voynuk's appointed for each village.

    - https://www.bosanskehistorije.com/fo...hp?f=19&t=1284

    This are the most interesant maps concerning the Topic !!

    - https://i.imgur.com/zTrzQZE.jpg

    - https://i.imgur.com/4qUrPpr.jpg

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