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Thread: Albanian and Vlach tribes in Herzegovina

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    Albanian and Vlach tribes in Herzegovina

    I found this discussion really interesting.

    I've always wondered about the similarities in culture between Herzegovina, Montenegro, and Albania. I've come to think of the Glasinac Culture as the core Illyrian area. It would make sense for this geographic area to share similarities. However, the mechanisms for how those similarities were transmitted is not apparent. A surviving Vlach and Albanian tribal stratum surviving in the area in the late middle ages would be the exact medium that could explain this.

    I'm interested to know what else can be added to this discussion, as well as counter arguments.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasinac_culture


    Quote Originally Posted by Exercitus View Post
    Well as I.Rexha has noticed, in the Defter of Hercegovina year 1476, the existence of typical Albanian Anthroponyms\Patronyms - Bardho & Progon - among the Burmaz\Burrmadh people in Nahije of Burmaz;

    ...Po ashtu, duhet theksuar se nė nahijen Burmaz hasim 4 familje me patronimin Bardo tė substratit ilir dhe 3 familje me patronimin Progon tė protoshqipės mesjetare, qė nė mesjetė i mbanin familjet arbėrore...

    There are also other Anthroponymic and Topnomymic evidence from the 13th and 14th centuries that demonstrate their Albanophony, for instance;

    1) Bogdan son of Gjin of Burmaz & Gjin son of Burmaz year 1321 !!

    Attachment 37044

    2) The Toponymy near Gleđevaca (close to Burmaz Village) years 1382-1419, which contain a Anthroponymic component, to whom is attributed;
    Preka Ljut - Прека Љут

    3) The presence of Albanian-speaking communities near Ragusa\Dubrovnik where for the first time is 'attested the existence' of the Albanian language, in 14 july 1284 ;

    ....Audivi unam vocem, clamantem in monte in lingua albanesca.....

    Attachment 37045


    Attachment 37046


    So in the Hinterland of Ragusa in the XIII century we encounter Albanian Clans (Burmaz, Zoto,Mataruga, Zhura, Maleshi, Mirushi etc) and Vlach Clans (Ridjani, Banjani, Nenkovici, Glegjevici, Vranic, Perutinovci, etc)
    Quote Originally Posted by Maleschreiber View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbana%C5%A1ka,_Trebinje This settlement is linked to them

    From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burmazi : The brotherhoods of Burmazi also included the Zotovići. The earlier, non-Slavic form of Zotović is Zot, which means lord in Albanian.[4] Geographer Jevto Dedijer who traveled in the village to study its history noted that this earlier form was inscribed in the village in older family monuments like a cross that bore the name of village elder Petar Zot.[3]

    From Idriz Ajeti's Collected Works: "Nė fshatin Burmaz, nga shqipja buri-madh – njeri i madh, Jefta Dedijer, (o.c.121), lexoi nė njė kryq tė vjetėr qė njė plak i tyre ėshtė quajtur Petar Zot, e jo Zotović. Dedijeri pohon se kjo ishte njė familje e vjetėr, dhe duke u mbėshtetur nė njė shėnim, thotė se “peshkopi Noktaris Zotoviqi, trebinjas nė vitin 1705, i fali ikonėn manastirit
    tė Trebinjės”. "

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    bump.....

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    The 7th.C.AD chronicle of Ragusa says that Dukagjin refugees moved to Ragusa from Bosnia & Albania in 690 AD


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    If somebody can find a source to this chronicle of ragusa, it would be important. Dukagjin and Albania mentioned in 690AD?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    If somebody can find a source to this chronicle of ragusa, it would be important. Dukagjin and Albania mentioned in 690AD?
    Yes, Albania was mentioned then. About Dukagjini the author here probably means the areas that were later known as Dukagjin.

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    I remember reading that the "Vlach" inhabitants of Herzegovina were subjected to a one child policy by the Serbian lowland rulers, otherwise they were subjected to extra taxes. I can't remember where I read this.

    A policy of this sort may explain the lack of typical paternal paleo-Balkan Y-DNA markers such as R1b, J2b, J2a, and Ev-13, as well as the elevated increase of paternal markers associated with the Slavic invasion of 12a and R1a. It is entirely possible that through bottlenecks and founder effects, that these Vlach and Albanian tribes could have carried these same markers we observe today in Herzegovina. However, a one child policy(if true and enforceable) could have easily changed the Y-DNA makeup of the region within a few generations.
    Last edited by trdbr1234; 04-05-2020 at 05:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleschreiber View Post
    Yes, Albania was mentioned then. About Dukagjini the author here probably means the areas that were later known as Dukagjin.
    Nah, it supposedly specifically mentions them in 600s AD.:

    " Ragusan sources, published by Makushev in "Research on the Chronicle of Ragusa," (12) claim that the Dukagjinis were known as the Dukagjinis of Arbania in the seventh century and ruled over the Albanian part of Montenegro (Piperi, Vasojevich, Podgorica and Kuchi, i.e. Zeta). They apparently rose in revolt against the Slavic invaders but were put down by Bosnian chieftains. In 695 they attempted to interfere in domestic Ragusan issues but were repulsed again and submitted to the local Slavic leaders. Their pride and self-confidence hindered them from creating family ties with the Slavs whom they regarded as below their dignity. As the Chronicle puts it: "compari per sempre non accattarono che infra loro." (13)"


    In his testament, Gjon Muzhaka writes with great fantasy on the origins of the Dukagjinis, alleging that they stemmed from Troy and emigrated to France. Two brothers from this dynasty, on the other hand, are thought to have emigrated to Italy during the Crusades. One of them is said to have been the founder of the Este dynasty, the other returned and settled in Zadrima near Shkodra and founded the Dukagjinis.

    Closest to the truth in this tangled net of fables and legends is, in our view, the report of a Byzantine chronicler of the seventh century. He states that at the end of the fifth century, a tribe of Goths under their leader Duke Gentius (or Genusius or Gjin) penetrated into the Shkodra region from Dalmatia and settle there. Compelled to react to this new reality, the Byzantine Emperor made Gjin his Sebastocrator, also calling him a magister militum from Dalmatia. This Gentius is said to have set up a realm between Shkodra and Durrės, (14) which proved to be to the liking of the rural population because it adapted Gothic laws to those of the local tribes. The connection of the name Dukagjini to the code of customary law in the Albanian mountains, the so-called Canon or Kanun of Lekė Dukagjini, would seem to derive from this, such that the Goth in question may be regarded as the ancestor of the Dukagjinis. This, at least, would seem more likely than the above-mentioned legends."

    http://www.albanianhistory.net/1956_Vlora/index.html

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    Dukagjin being a Goth ruler in Albania seems pretty strange, would love some sources if anyone knows of any.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    Really interesting. Is there any detailed article or publications about them?
    Last edited by trdbr1234; 04-05-2020 at 07:27 PM.

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