Page 14 of 31 FirstFirst ... 4121314151624 ... LastLast
Results 131 to 140 of 309

Thread: Finally Danish samples in G25 (and French_Seine-Maritime and French_Pas-de-Calais)

  1. #131
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    3,776
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    Northwest European
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-V22

    Netherlands
    Thanks for the responses. But I guess you must partly trust on my professional eye as a historian.

    Drenthe and especially the Hondsrug part is a population pocket (that's the crucial point). Because of it's quite poor resources, sandy farm land is, although typical for funnel beaker settlements, quite meager ground. I don't pretend it's a lock down area but still.

    And you must add the social conditions too. Poor farm hands in Drenthe didnt't take their marriage partners form very fare. They were explicit locally bound.

    Even if a Scandinavian for whatsoever reason went to Drenthe and even I would miss an ancestor this is fare below ancestry that has a substantial influence on her! I am not mathematical minded but: parents 50%, grandparents 25%, g-grandparents 12,5%, gg-grandparents 6,25%-and we are still only on the Hondsrug- ggg parents 3,125% - gggparents 1,56 % _-hey I found 1 from Gelderland- etc etc). So if I missed a Norwegian or Scandic (which I still rule out but ok) than the influence is not substantial enough to give here a Swedish G25 result.

    And believe me also that Norwegians or any other Scandics that went to Netherlands tend to go were there were jobs are and a (urban) surrounding they could stay.....what sense does it make for a Norwegian to go to Drenthe in 1800 (or earlier)? No connection....

    And please don't see the Netherlands as monolithic.....it is not, it was not.

    So related to the subject the 'Baltic' influence must have been from a more 'deep layer' in the population of the Hondsrug.

    Everyone seems to believe the story of the expansion of the Steppe pastoralist. Why not the expansion of the Funnelbeaker farmer?
    Last edited by Finn; 04-10-2020 at 12:57 PM.

  2. #132
    Moderator
    Posts
    6,625
    Sex
    Location
    Normandy
    Ethnicity
    northwesterner
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-BY3604-Z275
    mtDNA (M)
    H5a1

    Normandie Netherlands Friesland Finland Orkney
    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post
    My humble opinion is that you cannot theoretize about connection to the Funnel Beaker people before you obtain a representative set of samples from that area of NL (Hondsrug Drenthe).
    1000% agree with this statement.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

  3. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to anglesqueville For This Useful Post:

     ffoucart (04-10-2020),  Finn (04-10-2020),  ph2ter (04-10-2020)

  4. #133
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,053
    Sex
    Location
    Zagreb
    Ethnicity
    Kaikavian Croatian
    Nationality
    Croatian
    Y-DNA (P)
    I2a1a2b-A815
    mtDNA (M)
    HV0-T195C!

    Croatia Austrian Empire European Union
    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Thanks for the responses. But I guess you must partly trust on my professional eye as a historian.

    Drenthe and especially the Hondsrug part is a population pocket (that's the crucial point). Because of it's quite poor resources, sandy farm land is, although typical for funnel beaker settlements, quite meager ground. I don't pretend it's a lock down area but still.

    And you must add the social conditions too. Poor farm hands in Drenthe dint't take their marriage partners form very fare. They were explicit locally bound.

    Even if a Scandinavian for whatsoever reason went to Drenthe and even I would miss an ancestor this is fare below ancestry that has a substantial influence on her! I am not mathematical (but parents 50%, grandparents 25%, g-grandparents 12,5%, gg-grandparents 6,25%-and we are still only on the Hondsrug- ggg parents 3,125% - gggparents 1,56 % _-hey I found 1 from Gelderland- etc etc). So if I missed a Norwegian or Scandic (which I still rule out but ok) than the influence is not substantial enough to give here a Swedish G25 result.

    And believe me also that Norwegians or any other Scandics that went to Netherlands tend to go were there were jobs are and a (urban) surrounding they could stay.....what sense does it make for a Norwegian to go to Drenthe in 1800 (or earlier)? No connection....

    And please don't see the Netherlands as monolithic.....it is not, it was not.

    So related to the subject the 'Baltic' influence must have been from a more 'deep layer' in the population of the Hondsrug.

    Everyone seems to believe the story of the expansion of the Steppe pastoralist. Why not the expansion of the Funnelbeaker farmer?
    Nobody would believe you before you get at least 5 kin unrelated samples from that area.
     
    All simple calculations, maps and plots I make for free, but for more complicated maps and calculations I ask for a donation via Hidden Content PayPalHidden Content account

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to ph2ter For This Useful Post:

     Finn (04-10-2020)

  6. #134
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    3,776
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    Northwest European
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-V22

    Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post
    Nobody would believe you before you get at least 5 kin unrelated samples from that area.
    Agree but that is for Single Grave (first Steppe Pastoralist) also the case....so if this is the rule why should I believe whatsoever in this respect????

  7. #135
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    3,776
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    Northwest European
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-V22

    Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by ph2ter View Post
    Nobody would believe you before you get at least 5 kin unrelated samples from that area.
    I come to four, 3 Blatterhöhle MN and 1 Esperstedt MN, I miss number five the one from Sorsum. All this samples lay just outside the TRB core....only a few miles.

    The G25 result unscaled:


  8. #136
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    3,776
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    Northwest European
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-V22

    Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    Finn^^, apologies, seems I was confusing what you tell about your mother, and what you told months ago (or years ago) about a fine substructure in NL. About your mom, I'm tempted to ask the same question as Evon: "Are you sure she doesn't have any Norwegian or Danish ancestry, lots of Norwegians settled in Holland". Furthermore, it's not even necessary to wonder about a not unlikely Scandinavian ancestor. The tools we are using on this thread don't capture gene flows, on this point I'll remain uncompromising, but at most are sensitive to similarities through geometrical configurations. It's, for example, the reason why my father gets a high Swedish percentage with spreadsheets that don't include Finnish samples, and if I use a spreadsheet without Swedish he will get significative percentages for other Baltic groups, like Latvian, Belarusian, etc. In any case, what puzzles me is the way your thoughts jump directly to Narva and complex palaeogenetic explanations, leaving out some "genealogical eccentricities" which are perhaps a little trivial but are also as likely. All that said, I hope that there is no dramatic tonality behind my words because it's simply not a drama. Guys who are like you passionated by History tend to think the problems in a historical way, guys who like me have a mostly mathematical background have most often on everything a boring mathematical point of view, and fanatical genealogists search everywhere ancestors and cousins, it's life.
    Thanks Angles! I'm very curios what the "genealogical eccentricities" could be...

  9. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Finn For This Useful Post:

     anglesqueville (04-10-2020),  JMcB (04-10-2020)

  10. #137
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,157
    Sex
    Location
    French Flanders
    Ethnicity
    Northwestern European
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b L21>DF13
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a29a

    France Belgium Flanders Wallonia Occitania France Bretagne
    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    ...
    If I am agree with on autosomal signature, I can't about your "population pocket".

    As a matter of fact, I have found the marriage act at Bainghen or Surques (Pas de Calais) of a Norwegian merchant (living in Dunkirk), with a local woman around 1700 (I searched for something else, and it was a surprise). The couple had at least one child (baptism at Dunkirk). Rare but not inexistant.

    And my grandmother was from a small village in Massif Central. All her known ancestors since 1700 where local (around 30 kms at best). High endogamy as well (some ancestors are 2,3 or 4 times her ancestors). But it was no more the case in 1600: some ancestors came from more than 100 kms. And the more I go back the more the circle of her ancestry is widening. Ok, it is only a small part of her ancestry, but it doesn't matter from a genealogical point of view. By the way, it happens that those non local ancestors are often multiple times her ancestors (4 times at least).

    So, even in a population pocket, there could be some non local ancestry, not so far away.

  11. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to ffoucart For This Useful Post:

     evon (04-11-2020),  Finn (04-10-2020),  JMcB (04-10-2020),  jstephan (04-10-2020),  Ruderico (04-10-2020)

  12. #138
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    3,776
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    Northwest European
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-V22

    Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by ffoucart View Post
    If I am agree with on autosomal signature, I can't about your "population pocket".

    As a matter of fact, I have found the marriage act at Bainghen or Surques (Pas de Calais) of a Norwegian merchant (living in Dunkirk), with a local woman around 1700 (I searched for something else, and it was a surprise). The couple had at least one child (baptism at Dunkirk). Rare but not inexistant.

    And my grandmother was from a small village in Massif Central. All her known ancestors since 1700 where local (around 30 kms at best). High endogamy as well (some ancestors are 2,3 or 4 times her ancestors). But it was no more the case in 1600: some ancestors came from more than 100 kms. And the more I go back the more the circle of her ancestry is widening. Ok, it is only a small part of her ancestry, but it doesn't matter from a genealogical point of view. By the way, it happens that those non local ancestors are often multiple times her ancestors (4 times at least).

    So, even in a population pocket, there could be some non local ancestry, not so far away.
    Yes of course. And looking in Drenthe there was a sporadic immigrant especially from neighboring Emsland or Bentheim. But please you can't copy paste your region to a region like Drenthe!

    Even in the North Dutch region there are differences. We have the rich clay grounds, with yeoman farmers aiming a high bourgeois life style in the nineteenth century, and labourers from fare (especially the German hinterland) for seasonal work on the farm. We have a peat districts, commercial from the beginning in the 17th century, with a very immigrant culture, very religious divers, very middle class entrepreneurs (here lay most of my fathers roots).

    And we have the poor sandy places, with small farms, like the Hondsrug,

    Or as it was stated in an article:
    The position of Drenthe is unusual in that it has been largely screened offfrom the outside world by the raised bogs and fenland surrounding it.
    So if something was close to a 'population pocket' than Drenthe was......but obviously all against deaf ears.

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to Finn For This Useful Post:

     alexfritz (04-11-2020)

  14. #139
    Registered Users
    Posts
    82
    Sex
    Location
    Wolverhampton, England
    Ethnicity
    English, Welsh
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    R-DF98
    mtDNA (M)
    X2b4

    United Kingdom England Wales Devon
    Not wishing to derail the thread, but does anyone have any idea where England_Roman:1257_Co can be found with respect to which paper?

  15. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to jadegreg For This Useful Post:

     Dewsloth (04-10-2020),  JMcB (04-10-2020)

  16. #140
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,157
    Sex
    Location
    French Flanders
    Ethnicity
    Northwestern European
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b L21>DF13
    mtDNA (M)
    K1a29a

    France Belgium Flanders Wallonia Occitania France Bretagne
    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    So if something was close to a 'population pocket' than Drenthe was......but obviously all against deaf ears.
    Well, a small village of 40 (today) at 800m high, with small farms... You never went in Massif Central, if I may? Complete backwater.

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to ffoucart For This Useful Post:

     Ruderico (04-10-2020)

Page 14 of 31 FirstFirst ... 4121314151624 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. maritime diffusion model for megaliths in Europe
    By Trelvern in forum Archaeology (Prehistory)
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 02-26-2019, 11:15 PM
  2. Ancêtres Tatares en Charente-Maritime
    By Titane in forum French
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 09-26-2018, 11:52 AM
  3. My current list of U106+ samples in aDNA samples
    By Bollox79 in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 04-23-2018, 12:51 AM
  4. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 04-08-2014, 11:07 AM
  5. Replies: 10
    Last Post: 05-09-2013, 12:14 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •