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Thread: Most ancetrial homeland of Indo-Europeans in Europe - Karelia and Baltica...

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    Why not? BUT Maltaboy was onot originaly from there. He was from the
    west ...
    The antecedents of Mal'ta boy look to be from further east - say the ANS population at Yana.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemv View Post
    Never heart about "Old Karelia", also couldn't find it on wiki. What's that?
    Monastery we are talking about is well outside Finnish borders in 1918-1939.
    Karelia as an ethnic area is or actually was of course much wider than Respublika nowadays is, for instance the river name Svir is apparently based on something like Karelian/Veps Syvär', -i.

    Even Izhorians south of St. Pete are/were basically Karelians, at least that was their endonym.
    Last edited by Huck Finn; 04-14-2020 at 09:23 PM.

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  5. #13
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    R1a was widespread all over european russia and probably got to the north through to the upper volga. The madness of pan-turanists has no limts.
    Last edited by rob101; 04-14-2020 at 11:47 PM.

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  7. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    The antecedents of Mal'ta boy look to be from further east - say the ANS population at Yana.
    We don't know yet, ANS cluster could have been and certainly was present in all siberia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dieu View Post
    We don't know yet, ANS cluster could have been and certainly was present in all siberia.
    Could have been in parts of Siberia - yes. Certainly was present in all Siberia - doubtful.

    We have the precursor to both Q and R at Yana as well.

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  11. #16
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    I doubt that anybody seriously argues that the River Svir, Karelian/Vepsan Syvär, does not come from the Finnic word 'syvä', 'deep':
    Finnish 'syvä', Ingrian 'süvä', Karelian 'syvä', Ludic 'šüvä', Vepsan 'süvä', Votic 'süvä', Estonian 'süvä', Livonian 'tivā'.

    Pauli Rahkonen explains (p. 31) that the name is not related to the deepness of a river, but to the steepness of the shore. According to him, there are several lakes called 'Syväri*' in Finland, and they all have a considerable difference of altitude. Moreover, several Uralic languages use the same adjective to mean both 'high' and 'deep', e.g. Mordvin and Komi.

    https://www.google.fi/url?sa=t&rct=j...psbDYV_aom2Swl
    Last edited by Kristiina; 04-15-2020 at 05:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel View Post
    Why not? BUT Maltaboy was onot originaly from there. He was from the
    west, so, the Heimat was probably somewhere between Volga and Yenisey.
    I guess it was probably between Volga and Ural . . .
    PIE did not come into existence until about 4500 BC at the very earliest. Mal'ta Boy died about 24k years ago near Lake Baikal in Siberia. The preponderance of the evidence indicates that PIE first arose on the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

    That's why not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    You can't really talk realistically about Indo-Europeans until about 4500 BC. Their ancestors were their ancestors, whoever they were, but they weren't Indo-Europeans until somebody began to speak Indo-European.

    It's kind of like calling Mal'ta Boy an Indo-European and saying the area around Lake Baikal was the original ancestral home of the Indo-Europeans.
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    PIE did not come into existence until about 4500 BC at the very earliest. Mal'ta Boy died about 24k years ago near Lake Baikal in Siberia. The preponderance of the evidence indicates that PIE first arose on the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

    That's why not.
    Small correction: ~4500 BCE is an estimate of when the initial break-up of PIE occurred, and not an estimate of when PIE began as a spoken language. This brings us to a more interesting question... When do languages truly "start"?

    To answer that question, we can look at the Indo-European family itself. We ascribe the "start" of its branches to the emergence of the peculiar traits that set them apart from the rest, so in the case of Germanic for instance we have a series of sound changes which occurred in a specific sequence (those include Grimm and Verner's laws). The moment these sound laws took root is the moment when Proto-Germanic began as a distinct language, in the sense that it no longer was a dialect that retained some degree of mutual intelligibility with other early IE dialects.

    Those peculiar traits I mentioned are better known as "common innovations" in linguistics, and here we have a direct parallel with genetics. In genetics, a mutation is often described as a copying error, and that is exactly what is meant here by "common innovation", that is to say a generalised mistake that arises through a benign "copying" mechanism. So think of those "common innovations" as mutations.

    What are the mutations that enable us to set Proto-Indo-European apart and pinpoint its departure point in time and space you might ask. Well the simple answer is that like every field, comparative linguistics has its limitations and that we won't know as long as we cannot relate Proto-Indo-European to another language family. And even then things might not be as simple, we have an example of this in the form of Proto-Semitic, a language roughly contemporary with PIE, there is one major difference though, and that is the fact that we know to which language family PS is related. PS is part of the larger Afroasiatic macro-family, and its closest relatives within that family are Berber and Cushitic.

    Despite this, we do not yet know exactly which mutations set PS apart from both Berber and Cushitic (and the rest of AA for that matter), and therefore we do not know exactly when it began as a distinct language. I have no doubt this can be answered, and many (such as yours truly) could readily provide a list of possible mutations, but so far we do not know.

    That being said, when linguists set out to reconstruct a language, they do not do so out of romanticism, essentially what we try to do is to re-establish a part of the past that is and will remain unattested. In other words, while the reconstructions are theoretical, we are dealing with something that is quite real, PIE was a real language that was spoken by real people some 6500 years ago.

    It is conventional among linguists to think that relationships that are more than 10,000 years old are beyond the scope of the comparative method, that is to say that if PIE shared a common ancestor with Proto-Uralic (for argument's sake) some 15,000 years BP then we should expect much of the vocabulary to be almost wholly unrelated as divergence takes root at a rapid pace. For that reason, PIE in all likeliness "began" no more than a thousand years prior to the break-up estimate you mentioned, and so any attempt to speak of "ANE", "WHG" or "CHG" languages is a futile endeavour as we are dealing with populations that are more than 10,000 years old (and therefore lie beyond the scope of the comparative method).
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 04-15-2020 at 04:00 PM.
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    Petra Goedegebuure, a Professor of Hittitology, declared the Hittite separated from other PIE before the invention of the wheel and before the invention of agriculture, they did not share agricultural terminology with rest of PIE, so we can consider PIE being spoken since the Mesolithic, 8000 BC, at least.
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    My understanding was that ~4500 BC was a rough estimate for the beginning of Proto-Indo-European, which began to split around 4000 - 3000 BC, but I'm no linguist.

    I find a date of ~8000 BC impossible to believe. No way.

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