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Thread: J2b-L283

  1. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruzmi View Post
    Cetina had contacts with all maritime areas of the central Mediterranean so finding J-L283 which are 150-200 years younger than the ones in the Peloponnese is explained by these maritime contacts and movements which Maran discusses. Right now there's a quite high possibility that we'll get J-L283 as far as the Tarxien Cemetery phase, hence finding a few of them in Sardinia isn't even that spectacular any longer.
    It is a possibilitie they came out of some of these Cetina sailors of course , but the thing is that the Nuragic Z600 clade (J-YP157*) is a early split wich have not been found in cetina, at least not yet, not to talk about the YP91 nuragic too, adding some serious upstream diversity among them. I might change my mind if this change somehow.
    Last edited by Platonitzsche; 11-30-2022 at 08:33 PM.

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  3. #292
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    Here’s a link to this Mycenaean site at Mygdalia Hill:

    https://www.austriaca.at/0xc1aa5576%200x003c7f53.pdf

    Regarding the shaft grave burial:

    A rectangular grave was opened in a small courtyard next to the LH I room, to the north of the wall made by a block cut out of the bedrock. The grave, measuring 0.93 × 0.48m, was lined with stone walls at four sides and was covered by four heavy slabs. It contained the remains of an infant and neonates without burial gifts. The preliminary report of the study of the bones by Olivia Jones suggests that there were at least three individuals buried in the grave, an eight to fourteen month-old infant (a case of infant mortality) and two unborn children, four to five and seven to nine lunar months old, the result of miscarriages. It is interesting to note the reaction of the living to these deaths. Infants or stillborn/premature-born children were considered to deserve a proper burial within the precincts of the family dwellings. What is of interest is that the infant was placed along one side of the tomb, while both the stillborn/premature babies were deposited at the opposite end, in other words, the burials were distinguished according to who had seen the light of life and who had not. Samples of the bones were processed through AMS (Accelerator Mass Spectrometry) by Olivia Jones and Johannes van der Plicht, and the preliminary results give us dates ranging from 1680 to 1530 BC that correspond roughly to a LH I/IIA date.

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  5. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    Here’s a link to this Mycenaean site at Mygdalia Hill:

    https://www.austriaca.at/0xc1aa5576%200x003c7f53.pdf

    Regarding the shaft grave burial:

    A rectangular grave was opened in a small courtyard next to the LH I room, to the north of the wall made by a block cut out of the bedrock. The grave, measuring 0.93 × 0.48m, was lined with stone walls at four sides and was covered by four heavy slabs. It contained the remains of an infant and neonates without burial gifts. The preliminary report of the study of the bones by Olivia Jones suggests that there were at least three individuals buried in the grave, an eight to fourteen month-old infant (a case of infant mortality) and two unborn children, four to five and seven to nine lunar months old, the result of miscarriages. It is interesting to note the reaction of the living to these deaths. Infants or stillborn/premature-born children were considered to deserve a proper burial within the precincts of the family dwellings. What is of interest is that the infant was placed along one side of the tomb, while both the stillborn/premature babies were deposited at the opposite end, in other words, the burials were distinguished according to who had seen the light of life and who had not. Samples of the bones were processed through AMS (Accelerator Mass Spectrometry) by Olivia Jones and Johannes van der Plicht, and the preliminary results give us dates ranging from 1680 to 1530 BC that correspond roughly to a LH I/IIA date.
    Judging from the map, I think that "our" Mygdalia might be another one:


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  7. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by Platonitzsche View Post
    I thing you are joking, nice username by the way, but anyway..
    The J-Y33795( ancestor of your clade) seem to have been a dude living beetwen central europe and northwest italy in 1200 bce, given modern distribution and the ancient etruscan under J-Y45181, either J-Y33795 was himself a etruscan too or a halltatt/alpine celt, then later on his J-Y37840 descendents converted to judaims somehow. Not wanting to disapoint you but that is a very "continental" clade.
    Most likely yeah, but there's two wholly Levantine L283 clades which formed in the Bronze Age so I still have some hope (J-Y33795's descendants are all Jewish Kohanim so if he was a convert that would be very strange, and he lived 300 CE which is very early as Ashkenazi clades go)
    Last edited by DudeTheDud; 11-30-2022 at 09:22 PM.

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  9. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by DudeTheDud View Post
    Most likely yeah, but there's two wholly Levantine L283 clades which formed in the Bronze Age so I still have some hope (J-Y33795's descendants are all Jewish Kohanim so if he was a convert that would be very strange, and he lived 300 CE which is very early as Ashkenazi clades go)
    IMO, this raises the chance that this particular Kohanim branch got incorporated in either Greece or (less likely, but non-zero chance) Levant. But as it stands I think Southern Italy still is the most likely location due to historical/cultural factors. IIRC there were some East Med looking L283s from the Antonio et al paper in Italy early CE, that I believe were under that branch .


    Double checked: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...2017108404&z=6

    The yellow samples (common era) from Italy are of interest, and also the BC id:R474 which is a brother branch, allegedly Etruscan.
    Last edited by Archetype0ne; 11-30-2022 at 09:58 PM.
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  11. #296
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    Does anyone know if the orange squares have samples associated with them that are to be published?



    Makes me think since Logkas is an orange square, maybe we are getting samples from Pella soon?
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  13. #297
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  14. #298
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    First Slavomolisano language code on YFULL found in J2b-L283.

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    The 4.2 ka Event and the End of the Maltese “Temple Period”:

    Thermi Ware has often been discussed in relation to the Early Helladic II/III periods in the Aegean, but also shares close similarities with material from the Cetina Culture of the Balkan side of the Adriatic (e.g., Maran, 1998; Cazzella and Rechia, 2015; Pacciarelli et al., 2015; Rahmstorf, 2015; Recchia and Fiorentino, 2015). These similarities in pottery style, have been suggested to indicate a source in the Adriatic and spread to the Aegean, Italy, and Malta in the final centuries of the third millennium BC. The initial presence of small amounts of characteristic pottery, i.e., what is called Thermi Ware in Malta, has been taken to indicate not mass population movements, but rather the movement of small groups of “traders” and other kinds of specialists (Rahmstorf, 2015). Broodbank (2015) describes this spread across the Adriatic and into the wider central Mediterranean as an “eruption”, correlating with the 4.2 ka event (p. 352). A crucial aspect here, bearing in mind the variable character and impacts of the 4.2 ka event, is that the Adriatic has the highest rainfall in the Mediterranean (Broodbank, 2015, p. 350). The spread of the “Cetina Culture” material culture may therefore reflect that some societies in this region were more environmentally buffered than others.

    Another key aspect is that although sharing clear similarities with material from the Adriatic and Aegean, the geochemical characteristics of Thermi Ware pottery in Malta indicate that it was locally made (e.g., Malone et al., 2020d). There is also evidence for “hybrid” pottery, combining both typical Tarxien characteristics and typical Thermi/Cetina characteristics (Copat et al., 2013). The emerging view then suggests the arrival of small groups in the late Tarxien period, who may have played a role in triggering economic and social changes in the islands (e.g., Recchia and Fiorentino, 2015).

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