J2b-L283

[Reset]

Interesting how we don't have any J-L283 in Macedonia yet it appears in Greece.

[Bruzmi]

Interesting. Is there anything to indicate they were actually ancient Greek?

They most probably didn't have such an origin and a Balkan affiliation is noticeable. The area where they found is close to sites with Cetina culture links which expanded J-L283 lineages in the BA.

In previous pages I've posted papers which discuss Cetina culture in the Peloponnese.

[Bruzmi]

A rough sketch of the area which would be recognized as Illyria during the Iron Age. The only samples on the map are Bronze Age J-L283.



The Bronze Age sites which have been sampled for the most part cover a strip of land from southern Dalmatia to the Albania-Montenegro border. It's much more likely than not that not all J-L283 clades will be found in this strip of land which is only a small part of the historical Illyria. Cetina was a Proto-Illyrian archaeological culture, which is to say that by saying "Cetina culture" we're not referring to a specific people but to the way coastal Proto-Illyrian communities in Dalmatia arranged their material landscape. Other Illyrians who didn't live in coastal Dalmatia, arranged their environment in different ways and produced different archaeological cultures of the same people. The best known and most expansive such culture is Glasinac-Mati. I believe that this is one of the best candidates for major J-L283 clades which haven't been found in coastal Bronze Age Dalmatia.

[Riverman]

The Bronze Age sites which have been sampled for the most part cover a strip of land from southern Dalmatia to the Albania-Montenegro border. It's much more likely than not that not all J-L283 clades will be found in this strip of land which is only a small part of the historical Illyria. Cetina was a Proto-Illyrian archaeological culture, which is to say that by saying "Cetina culture" we're not referring to a specific people but to the way coastal Proto-Illyrian communities in Dalmatia arranged their material landscape. Other Illyrians who didn't live in coastal Dalmatia, arranged their environment in different ways and produced different archaeological cultures of the same people. The best known and most expansive such culture is Glasinac-Mati. I believe that this is one of the best candidates for major J-L283 clades which haven't been found in coastal Bronze Age Dalmatia.

Agreed, but another difference is that Glasinac-Mati is more mixed in character, like having received more Central European, Central- and East Balkan influences than those stripe of land. Also, Cetina-related influences were not restricted to this small zone, it was just their zone, but they expanded primarily along the sea routes, which is why they ended up earlier in coastal Greece than in inland zones.
How the inland zones relate to the coastal groups is at this point unknown, but there might have been a fairly late expansion from the coastal and Northern regions into the more inland and Central Balkan areas. The current sampling is however so much restricted that we might even miss direct inland neighbours of the currently sampled Cetina group.

[WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW]

Screenshot 2023-02-03 115959.png

[vettor]

A rough sketch of the area which would be recognized as Illyria during the Iron Age. The only samples on the map are Bronze Age J-L283.



The Bronze Age sites which have been sampled for the most part cover a strip of land from southern Dalmatia to the Albania-Montenegro border. It's much more likely than not that not all J-L283 clades will be found in this strip of land which is only a small part of the historical Illyria. Cetina was a Proto-Illyrian archaeological culture, which is to say that by saying "Cetina culture" we're not referring to a specific people but to the way coastal Proto-Illyrian communities in Dalmatia arranged their material landscape. Other Illyrians who didn't live in coastal Dalmatia, arranged their environment in different ways and produced different archaeological cultures of the same people. The best known and most expansive such culture is Glasinac-Mati. I believe that this is one of the best candidates for major J-L283 clades which haven't been found in coastal Bronze Age Dalmatia.

how many are associated with the Danilo culture ?

Danilo culture (Croatian: Danilska kultura) was a Neolithic culture of the Dalmatian coast of Croatia and parts of Bosnia, dating to 4700-3900 BC.

[Polska]

how many are associated with the Danilo culture ?

Danilo culture (Croatian: Danilska kultura) was a Neolithic culture of the Dalmatian coast of Croatia and parts of Bosnia, dating to 4700-3900 BC.

Zero.

[Platonitzsche]

Puerto Rican and Austrian fellows have just formed their own branch under J-YP91, their TMRCA ( most recent common ancestor) is from 2300 bce.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-C110053/

[Riverman]

Puerto Rican and Austrian fellows have just formed their own branch under J-YP91, their TMRCA ( most recent common ancestor) is from 2300 bce.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-C110053/

Considering how Cetina was coming up, J-L283 shouldn't have been too far from the Bell Beaker neighbourhood. There will be a contact community, eventually, which was mixed Bell Beaker R-L51 + J-L283, and I doubt it will be too far away from Northern Italy-Alpine-West Adriatic.

[vettor]

Considering how Cetina was coming up, J-L283 shouldn't have been too far from the Bell Beaker neighbourhood. There will be a contact community, eventually, which was mixed Bell Beaker R-L51 + J-L283, and I doubt it will be too far away from Northern Italy-Alpine-West Adriatic.

thanks

maybe its part of the

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo-Dalmatian_languages .................eventually


The Adriatic sea at that time was no barrier for migration

I see the ancient Japodes ( of modern south slovenia and Northern Croatia ) as having both marker you noted