J2b-L283

[Platonitzsche]

Hello, I would like to know about the I20654 sample from Yorkshire (West Heslerton ) recently put in the map https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...22.6271305&z=4
Was he checked as being J-L283>>Y21878 ? In the paper table (supplementry table) he is put as J2b1-M205, what is up with that sample ?
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05247-2

[Trojet]

Hello, I would like to know about the I20654 sample from Yorkshire (West Heslerton ) recently put in the map https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer...22.6271305&z=4
Was he checked as being J-L283>>Y21878 ? In the paper table (supplementry table) he is put as J2b1-M205, what is up with that sample ?
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05247-2

Yes, see here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....658#post865658

FTDNA agrees as well: https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/J-CTS5789/tree

IIRC, in the supplementary table he was only classified as J2b.

EDIT:
I do see now that he is listed as J2b-M205 in the supplementary table. Probably some kind of error by the authors related to the automatic caller which wouldn't be the first time. IMO, it highlights the importance of having the raw data public and analyzed/verified by independent researchers.

[Bruzmi]

Ancient DNA reveals admixture history and endogamy in the prehistoric Aegean was published.

Radiocarbon dating:

MYG001 (Intramuros Child Grave3.A) is a perinatal infant of 30-40 weeks in utero
with no apparent pathologies. Radiocarbon-dating on human bone (MYG001.A):
3265±21 BP, 1611-1457 cal BC (95% probability), (ID: MAMS-47527, AMS,
IntCal20).
• MYG002 (Intramuros Child Grave3. is a perinatal infant of 30-40 weeks in utero
with no apparent pathologies. Radiocarbon-dating on human bone (MYG002.A):
3318±21 BP, 1626-1518 cal BC (95% probability), (ID: MAMS-47528, AMS,
IntCal20).
• MYG003 (Intramuros Child Grave3.C) is an infant of 30-40 weeks in utero with no
apparent pathologies. Radiocarbon-dating on human bone (MYG003.A): 3318±21 BP,
1596-1438 cal BC (95% probability), (ID: MAMS-47529, AMS, IntCal20).
• MYG004 (Intramuros Child Grave3.D) is a perinatal infant of 30-40 weeks in utero
with no apparent pathologies. Radiocarbon-dating on human bone (MYG004.A):
3318±21 BP, 1609-1446 cal BC (95% probability), (ID: MAMS-47530, AMS,
IntCal20).
• MYG005 (Intramuros Child Grave3.E) is a perinatal infant of 30-40 weeks in utero
with no apparent pathologies. Radiocarbon-dating on human bone (MYG005.A):
3198±23 BP, 1504-1425 cal BC (95% probability), (ID: MAMS-47531, AMS,
IntCal20).
• MYG006 (Intramuros Child Grave3.F) is a perinatal infant of 30-40 weeks in utero with
no apparent pathologies. Radiocarbon-dating on human bone (MYG006.A): 3262±29
BP, 1612-1452 cal BC (95% probability), (ID: MAMS-47532, AMS, IntCal20).
• MYG008 (Intramuros Child Grave3.H) is an infant one-three months old with no
apparent pathologies. Radiocarbon-dating on human bone (MYG008.A): 3262±29 BP,
1611-1452 cal B-(95% probability), (ID: MAMS-47533, AMS, IntCal20).

They corrected the location of the Mygdalia site:



Other than that, it's another article which doesn't have much to offer because there's no real analysis of the archaeological, aDNA and anthropological data with an actual interdisciplinary methodology. This culminates in the absurd lumping of all haplotype J individuals (J-M410+, J-L283+, J1+) as if they represent the same migration pattern and population movement just because they carry the same haplotype:

The remaining—as well as the EBA/MBA ones—attest to the high prevalence of Y haplogroups J and G/G2 (39 and 10 out of 59, respectively; Supplementary Table 2). These were already present in Early Holocene Iran/Caucasus and among Anatolian and European farmers and very common in the Chalcolithic Anatolia and the Levant as well further highlighting the importance of the contacts between the Aegean and southwest Asian populations since the Early Neolithic.

[vettor]

Compare the article's clade movement map with Cetina movements in the Mediterranean:

the italians have never found Cetina culture in the salento peninsula ( Messapic lands )

this map, below is similar to your map....but shows cetina samples found in Italy



They are ONLY marking Cetina in Italy on the map

[Bruzmi]

the italians have never found Cetina culture in the salento peninsula ( Messapic lands )

this map, below is similar to your map....but shows cetina samples found in Italy



They are ONLY marking Cetina in Italy on the map

1)Northern Apulia which the map is depicting as Cetina was Messapic-speaking too

2)Not all maps depict all sites as they're not up to date. In general, Cetina spread inland via northern Apulia to the south, but it was also introduced in a seaborne manner as well.

I posted a paper which discusses Cetina presence in Calabria a few pages back. Maybe you didn't notice it.

Introducing Zungri culture, a Cetina formation in south-western Calabria, post-235o/23oo BCE.

The transition between the Copper and Bronze Ages in southern Italy and Sicily (2018)
Anita Crispino
Marco Pacciarelli

The recent, important discovery of Atena Lucana, prov. Salerno, in Campania may be able to shed some light on this obscure period (Talamo 2oo8). Unfortunately, the site is almost completely unpublished (so far, only a drawing of a typical Cetina juglet is available), and has only a single radio-metric date (see Appendix 1). However, from information provided by P. Talamo, we know that this inland site may be identified as a settlement closely related to the Cetina Culture group (similar, for instance, to the settlements at Olym-pia (Greece) and Le Rene-Rutigliano, prov. Bari; Rambach 2oo4; Radina 2o11). It is very interesting to note that the breakdown – or at least the weakening – of the long-lasting Laterza tradition coincides with the sudden appearance of a new cultural phenomenon, whose origins can ultimately be traced to the eastern Adriatic.In Calabria, the presence of a cultural group in some way related to the Cetina Culture is attested by several surface finds and one excavated settlement (Corazzo, prov. Crotone).

The most characteristic type of this Culture group – known as the Zungri Culture group – is a bowl with thickened rim decorated with impressed triangles, or with small impressed crosses (Marino/Pacciarelli 1996). The phenomenon of the diffusion of the Cetina cultural complex into the central and eastern Mediterranean has been examined in detail by several authors. It is a complex phenomenon, so far poorly understood, especially in Italy, due to the scarcity of published excavations and absolute dates. In the Aegean this diffusion correlates well with the Early Helladic III, now dated by R. Jung and B. Weninger (Jung/Weninger in the present volume) to between approxi-mately 23oo BC and 21oo BC. A similar chronology is also possible for the Italian evidence.

In the sequence of south-western Calabria (Pacciarelli 2o11), the Cetina-related Zungri Culture group clearly follows a late Laterza facies, very similar to that attested in the Apulian site of Grotta Cappuc-cini di Galatone, where 14 C dates between 25oo BC and 23oo BC have been established (Ingravallo 2oo2). A post-235o/23oo BC date for the beginning of the Zungri Culture group is therefore quite likely. Also, the radiometric date available for Atena Lucana is compatible with a position in the 23rd century BC, although because of the wide standard deviation it may also belong earlier.

It is important to remember that, according to some authors (e. g. Maran 1998; Maran 2oo7), the Cetina facies was spread throughout the central and eastern Mediterranean by seafaring communities, and was therefore confined mainly to coastal zones. This interpretation is certainly suited to some situations, but for southern Italy the process must certainly have been more complex, if we take into consideration the presence of Cetina sites in areas quite remote from the sea – 47 kilometres, for instance, in the case of Atena Lucana, prov. Salerno.

From these positions Cetina spread towards the southern tip of Salento:

LA GROTTA DELLE VENERI DI PARABITA (LECCE):

Con l’Eneolitico (IV-III millennio a.C.) si diffusero nuove fogge e nuovi costumi funerari: molte grotte divennero sedi di sepolture collettive e una nuova tipologia vide la nascita di seppellimenti sotto tumulo dove, accanto all’inumazione, veniva praticata l’incinerazione. Le forme ceramiche sono ispirate agli aspetti classici di Gaudo e Laterza con interessanti rimandi alla cultura transadriatica di Cetina. Nel II millennio continua la frequentazione della grotta ma con un carattere più dimesso e una suppellettile di uso quotidiano come grandi contenitori e attrezzi per la lavorazione del latte quali i bollitoi. Si conclude così la vicenda millenaria di Grotta delle Veneri, punto di riferimento per le genti che di volta in volta popolarono il territorio, incubatrice di miti e credenze con cui nutrì la vita di intere generazioni dando loro un senso, una memoria da tramandare e una storia da raccontare.

Translation (bold part):

Many caves became sites of collective burials and a new type emerged in the form of tumuli burials, where cremation was practiced alongside inhumation. The ceramic forms are inspired by the classical aspects of Gaudo and Laterza with interesting references to the trans-Adriatic culture of Cetina.

Location:



Site:



There are many such sites but data hasn't been fully published about them yet, hence existing maps may not depict them.

[vettor]

1)Northern Apulia which the map is depicting as Cetina was Messapic-speaking too

2)Not all maps depict all sites as they're not up to date. In general, Cetina spread inland via northern Apulia to the south, but it was also introduced in a seaborne manner as well.

I posted a paper which discusses Cetina presence in Calabria a few pages back. Maybe you didn't notice it.



From these positions Cetina spread towards the southern tip of Salento:

LA GROTTA DELLE VENERI DI PARABITA (LECCE):

Con l’Eneolitico (IV-III millennio a.C.) si diffusero nuove fogge e nuovi costumi funerari: molte grotte divennero sedi di sepolture collettive e una nuova tipologia vide la nascita di seppellimenti sotto tumulo dove, accanto all’inumazione, veniva praticata l’incinerazione. Le forme ceramiche sono ispirate agli aspetti classici di Gaudo e Laterza con interessanti rimandi alla cultura transadriatica di Cetina. Nel II millennio continua la frequentazione della grotta ma con un carattere più dimesso e una suppellettile di uso quotidiano come grandi contenitori e attrezzi per la lavorazione del latte quali i bollitoi. Si conclude così la vicenda millenaria di Grotta delle Veneri, punto di riferimento per le genti che di volta in volta popolarono il territorio, incubatrice di miti e credenze con cui nutrì la vita di intere generazioni dando loro un senso, una memoria da tramandare e una storia da raccontare.

Translation (bold part):

Many caves became sites of collective burials and a new type emerged in the form of tumuli burials, where cremation was practiced alongside inhumation. The ceramic forms are inspired by the classical aspects of Gaudo and Laterza with interesting references to the trans-Adriatic culture of Cetina.

Location:



Site:



There are many such sites but data hasn't been fully published about them yet, hence existing maps may not depict them.

1.....just proves how useless language is in depicting ethnicity........because the west of the Daunians ( their neighbours ) where the Samnites who spoke a Umbri language, via a sub-branch of Sabine and Sabellic.


which calabria are you referring too ...........today area or the ancient area of Calabria which was next to the Messapic in Salento peninsula ?


Salento peninsula is the heel of Italy ...not the toe

In regards on who bought cetina from western Balkans ( Dalmatia ) to Italy............whoever the naval power was pre-1200BC.
from 1200BC to 735BC the liburnians controlled the Adriatic Sea ...................from 735BC the Corinthians took Corfu from the Liburnians and advanced up the Adriatic sea over time........Also Argos and Sparta naval power was also in Taranto a bit later circa 500BC

[vettor]

Calabria, ancient city whose name applied, from the 3rd century bce to the 7th century ce, to a district in the southeastern extremity of the Italian peninsula between the Adriatic and the Gulf of Tarentum. According to the geographer Strabo (1st century bce), the region had once been the site of 13 prosperous cities, but by the 3rd century bce only the ports of Tarentum (Taranto) and Brundisium (Brindisi)

ancient Calabria near the Heel of Italy



Strabo official description , in English

[Guiguitargz]

Compare the article's clade movement map with Cetina movements in the Mediterranean:

Y23094 Diversifies around 1100 BCE ... whatever is its diffusion related too, I think Cetina culture is a dead-end .
In general, Y23094 have been spread around 1100/1000 BCE, with little large scale clade-correlation post-1000 BCE.

Y23094 is very interesting as with the data we have yet, there is a large variety of viable models for its situation by LBA :
-An extremely southern location (near Greece) is a real option.
-Southern Italy is a decent possibility.
-Even northern-Italy/Eastern-Alps are not out of the picture (not my favorite option right know, as the strong 1100 BCE signal is hard to explain in this precise context).

The only place that seems very unlikely is Glasinac culture, the diversification histories post-1800 BCE are too different for Y21878 and Y23094, these clade were very likely not immediately next to each other (funnily, this is likely the favorite theory of protochronists).

[slamberty]

I don't know how else we could account for the diversity on both sides of the Adriatic. In any event only ancient DNA will help us know for sure and at the rate that new ancient samples are being found hopefully that's not far off.

[Guiguitargz]

I don't know how else we could account for the diversity on both sides of the Adriatic. In any event only ancient DNA will help us know for sure and at the rate that new ancient samples are being found hopefully that's not far off.

You mean for Y23094 ?
With a diversification that could line-up with bronze age collapse ... I see no issue for spreading this clade on the mediteranean coast.
The solutions are not missing during EIA to spread a clade on both sides of the Adriatic.
Whereas a Cetina-based diffusion would be a 2-sigma tension for the the mutation rate. And in fact, Y23094 is already a branch with a high mutation rate compared to other branch of Z638.