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Thread: Ancient genomes from present-day France unveil 7,000 years of its demographic history

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    Quote Originally Posted by ADW_1981 View Post
    Men don't walk around things, we walk through them Only been to Europe once, and didn't zoom in on Google maps
    As a native of Western Pyrenees (Bearn), I promise you it is NOT difficult to cross these mountains in this part of the range. Did u ever hear of the "Camino de Santiago"? Each year thousands of people are walking 1200m up from France to Roncesvalles Abbaye (Spain) within one day. Among them are old people and youngsters. You just need to take care of the snow and fog...And drink a lot of water!
    FYI, this trail is matching with an old Roman Road which was in continuation of a neolithic road north-south b/w Iberia and Europe along the Atlantic Ocean in Aquitania (France)...
    Last edited by kraken70; 06-02-2020 at 02:55 PM.

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  3. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    From early Bronze Age to the Iron age remains available there is a gap and the people coming out of that gap are not the same. They are not that different and there is a great deal of continuity, but they are not the same. And that's at the very fringe of the Celtic world, a place through which anything coming from Central Europe would have gone through a lot of filters. I see the Celtic spread mostly as a domino effect, one piece kicking off the next and with every turn the initial core groups ancestry would have been drastically reduced. We have a case for Iberia with Celtiberians, probably we can get more out of it with even more samples, but in Iberia there is an immigration, there is an influx. And its no big replacement, so it fits the pattern.
    The very fringe of the Celtic world is exactly where we should be looking as they would have been the least influenced by geneflow, language and culture. To boot, islands are less likely to be influenced by these changes. Like I said previously, there seems to be little chance that anything during the Iron Age brought novel Celtic language to Ireland. Perhaps Gaulish had an influence on prior Celtic languages in Britain and perhaps that was accompanied by sub subtle geneflow, but anything more than that seems far fetched IMO.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by kraken70 View Post
    As a native of Western Pyrenees (Bearn), I promise you it is NOT difficult to cross these mountains in this part of the range. Did u ever hear of the "Camino de Santiago"? Each year thousands of people are walking 1200m up from France to Roncesvalles Abbaye (Spain) within one day. Among them are old people and youngsters. You just need to take care of the snow and fog...And drink a lot of water!
    FYI, this trail is matching with an old Roman Road which was in continuation of a neolithic road north-south b/w Iberia and Europe along the Atlantic Ocean in Aquitania (France)...
    My mother's twin sister did this several months ago, and she's 78.
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    The very fringe of the Celtic world is exactly where we should be looking as they would have been the least influenced by geneflow, language and culture. To boot, islands are less likely to be influenced by these changes. Like I said previously, there seems to be little chance that anything during the Iron Age brought novel Celtic language to Ireland. Perhaps Gaulish had an influence on prior Celtic languages in Britain and perhaps that was accompanied by sub subtle geneflow, but anything more than that seems far fetched IMO.
    They might be heavily influenced, but not by leap frogging from Germany-Austria-Slovenia or the like, but by diffusion through infiltration of one subpopulation after another. For Ireland it would be therefore sufficient to prove an influx from Britain and Gaul. Only at the beginning of the expansion from the relative South East a novel signal is to be expected. There won't be just one immigration to the Isles.
    Last edited by Riverman; 06-02-2020 at 06:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I have to confess that my knowledge about Irish prehistory is rather poor, but I can tell you for other places from Central and Western Europe, that there are cemeteries with a fairly wide social range from top to bottom or at least almost so.



    From early Bronze Age to the Iron age remains available there is a gap and the people coming out of that gap are not the same. They are not that different and there is a great deal of continuity, but they are not the same. And that's at the very fringe of the Celtic world, a place through which anything coming from Central Europe would have gone through a lot of filters. I see the Celtic spread mostly as a domino effect, one piece kicking off the next and with every turn the initial core groups ancestry would have been drastically reduced. We have a case for Iberia with Celtiberians, probably we can get more out of it with even more samples, but in Iberia there is an immigration, there is an influx. And its no big replacement, so it fits the pattern.



    Networking and dialect leveling with the convergence to one language are theoretical concepts. Looking at the spread of Hallstatt and later La Tene civilisation, that's not enough. I agree that we might deal with related people, with networks and limited gen flow, that's all fine, no issue with that, but its a wave of a culture spreading a new warrior class and artisans, new community structures, belief systems and so on, its a tribal people on the move. Most of the British Celts had counterparts on Gallia, that's no coincidence, they, or at least their core and elite groups origin was on the continent.



    It happened inside of Celtic territories later, as proven by the Roman records, with whole tribes disappearing, being eaten up and coming under the control of another people. What makes you think this didn't have taken place on an even bigger scale at the Iron Age transition? They simply did not replace big time, like in the Chalcolithic. But like I said, its not definitive, we need more samples to make a clear cut case.
    Yes but fighting between tribes of the same ethnicity and displacement of one by another is one thing. Attributing the arrival of an new culture or linguistic group is another. Virtually all the behaviors and general social structure seen in the isles in the Iron Age can also be seen all through much of the bronze age. Warrior elites bristling with weapons, controlling trade, wanting/emulating the latest fashions in weapons, jewelry etc, gatherings with feasting with cauldrons and spits etc all go back to pre-Iron Age times. Long before La Tene, Hallstatt D or Hallstatt C. In fact it can be seen from 1200BC. Archaeologically, outside the core 'wealthy graves' of the tribes at the key points in the continental trading network, we just see ripples of selective uptake of mostly elite material and sometimes other traded stuff in the Iron Age but with much other things remaining local. Exactly as we do throughout the Bronze Age. In the isles, the bronze age pattern of mostly depositing metals and wealth it in rivers, lakes and bogs continues in the iron age, contrasting with the continental tradition of depositing wealth in graves. There are only a very small amount of wealthy graves in Britain and none in Ireland. The contrasting use of round as opposed to rectangular houses (the norm in all of Gaul except the channel coast area) continues in the isles. In most of Scotland, Ireland and a good chunk of northern England there is no or only course bronze age style pottery in the Iron Age. There is close to zero classic La Tene material in eastern Scotland north of the Forth except a few very late AD period pieces. In Ireland cremation in round barrows continues just as in the bronze age -right up until the 2nd-4th centuries AD. Very very little, if anything other than choice of styles, changes in terms of society or social structure in the archaeological record in the isles with only a few areas being exceptions to this.

    The most rational way of interpreting this coupled with continuity of yDNA in the isles is that Celticity was long established by the Iron Age and most of the culture in the isles Iron Age was just a continuation of Bronze Age with the latest iron age styles. Im not an anti-migrationist. I've always believe there was major population replacement in the Neolithic and beaker eras. But I think those were exceptions not typical. Only two widely agreed major population movements in pre-ROman western EUrope - the Neolithic farmers and the beaker/early bronze age. Thats just two big movements across 4-5000 years until the Romans. So, I think it is a mistake to see the more subtle changes in the same migratory wave model. Most of the archaeological evidence would fit bettera scenario of local continuity but with fluctuating networking permitting both y-DNA continuity, modest gene-flow (marriages, craftsmen, priests, traders, mercenaries etc) and close cultural influence with dialect levelling (by systems like temporary fostering of elite children to other tribes etc).

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Yes but fighting between tribes of the same ethnicity and displacement of one by another is one thing. Attributing the arrival of an new culture or linguistic group is another. Virtually all the behaviors and general social structure seen in the isles in the Iron Age can also be seen all through much of the bronze age. Warrior elites bristling with weapons, controlling trade, wanting/emulating the latest fashions in weapons, jewelry etc, gatherings with feasting with cauldrons and spits etc all go back to pre-Iron Age times. Long before La Tene, Hallstatt D or Hallstatt C. In fact it can be seen from 1200BC.
    What you describe are common characteristics in most of the post-steppe world, so not extraordinary in the European context anywhere. Its also important to look at other places for what's taking place and some major changes predate the Iron Age indeed, like the Urnfield Culture and its expansions. But even before that Unetice and Tumulus culture as very important post-Bell Beaker developments. But then the Bronze Age networks collapse and the spread of Iron Age cultures up to the North, up to Scandinavia (Jastorf). There were so many upheavals and you see that in those place where we have data from, change took place, even if there was no large scale replacement any more. Many post-BB cultures of Western Europe, attested historically, were not Indo-European, yet Celtic speaking at all. So you can't say for sure what happened.

    I'm not saying you are wrong, but I think its not decided yet and I'm leaning more to a demic diffusion in LBA/EIA and La Tene, even if its a rather elitist movement which might have been largely lost especially in Ireland. The Irish case is peculiar for another reason: Many of the local lineages are more recent founders, many lineages will have been lost in the various transitions which happened. So unless we have a more complete record from the ancient DNA, I'm still waiting with a definitive conclusion. And France and Britain will be more important for the decision, because there we have the clear connection to the continent. Ireland might have been so dependent from the larger networks on the one hand, while isolated on the other, that it mgiht be indeed the best case for your scenario to work out, even if larger scale migrations being found elsewhere.

    Thanks for the insights into British Isles developments of the time. Can you elaborate on the important transition from inhumation to cremation in the BA? For much of Central Europe and Italy the Urnfield tradition was of great importance before the Iron Age. To which continental developments can the cremation practise of Late Bronze Age Ireland be connected?

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    Demic diffusion of culture rarely brings about the replacement of an entire language. The Romans, perhaps the greatest demic diffusers in European history influenced had commercial, cultural and religious influences on Ireland and did not change the language there. There is little reason to think anything after the Bell Beaker period did anything more than augment Celtic languages with loan words or replace Celtic for Celtic. From what little I know of modern Celtic families, I don't even know that the Celtic spoken in Britain and Ireland at the end of the Iron Age were even mutually intelligible (someone keep my honest here). If the Celtic speech arrived in Ireland as late as the Iron Age, that would be impossible.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Demic diffusion of culture rarely brings about the replacement of an entire language. The Romans, perhaps the greatest demic diffusers in European history influenced had commercial, cultural and religious influences on Ireland and did not change the language there. There is little reason to think anything after the Bell Beaker period did anything more than augment Celtic languages with loan words or replace Celtic for Celtic. From what little I know of modern Celtic families, I don't even know that the Celtic spoken in Britain and Ireland at the end of the Iron Age were even mutually intelligible (someone keep my honest here). If the Celtic speech arrived in Ireland as late as the Iron Age, that would be impossible.
    From what I've read, and like you I am far from an expert, the biggest rule for Celtic is the loss of PIE "P". There are other rules, but that is the biggest rule. An example:

    "According to some academics like Prósper, based on one small Lusitanian inscription found, it wouldn’t be considered a Celtic language under existing definitions of linguistic Celticity[6] because it retains Indo-European p in positions where Celtic languages would not, specifically in PORCOM 'pig' and PORGOM in another inscription, a feature considered non-Celtic. This is refuted by Anderson who links PORCOM, the accusative form of *porkos- to O.Irish orc.[7][6"

    I used this quote from Wiki because of the similarity between Celtic, Lusitanian, Latin, and Cornish for pig/piglet.

    Porcom/porgom is Lusitanian
    Orc is Old Irish
    Porcum is Latin
    porghellik in Cornish, note in Cornish the "P" is there, yet it is still considered Celtic.

    Like you I think these languages were all very similar in the beginning. Maybe Celtic changed the most because of some isolation in Ireland and parts of Britain until the Iron Age? There are too many dialects of Italic and Celtic missing, though, that would help sort it out. My theory is the Webb Sandwich model. L21, DF27, and U152 are like a sandwich geographically and linguistically. L21 is one piece of bread and U152 is another. Df27 is the Bologna in the middle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    From what I've read, and like you I am far from an expert, the biggest rule for Celtic is the loss of PIE "P". There are other rules, but that is the biggest rule. An example:

    "According to some academics like Prósper, based on one small Lusitanian inscription found, it wouldn’t be considered a Celtic language under existing definitions of linguistic Celticity[6] because it retains Indo-European p in positions where Celtic languages would not, specifically in PORCOM 'pig' and PORGOM in another inscription, a feature considered non-Celtic. This is refuted by Anderson who links PORCOM, the accusative form of *porkos- to O.Irish orc.[7][6"

    I used this quote from Wiki because of the similarity between Celtic, Lusitanian, Latin, and Cornish for pig/piglet.

    Porcom/porgom is Lusitanian
    Orc is Old Irish
    Porcum is Latin
    porghellik in Cornish, note in Cornish the "P" is there, yet it is still considered Celtic.

    Like you I think these languages were all very similar in the beginning. Maybe Celtic changed the most because of some isolation in Ireland and parts of Britain until the Iron Age? There are too many dialects of Italic and Celtic missing, though, that would help sort it out. My theory is the Webb Sandwich model. L21, DF27, and U152 are like a sandwich geographically and linguistically. L21 is one piece of bread and U152 is another. Df27 is the Bologna in the middle.
    Sound changes are nothing uncommon at all, you have it within German too, in dialects not that far apart. Most of the time, not always, its because of a substrate language influencing the newcomers pronunciation. I'm open minded to different scenarios, but I don't think Celtic did expand with Bell Beakers at all. Celtic tongue expanded somewhere between the LBA and La Tene. One scenario possible would be an LBA/EIA spread of Celtic to Isles and a second (La Tene) expansion bringing dialects closer to continental speech and the similar/same tribal names to Britain.
    Last edited by Riverman; 06-03-2020 at 01:33 PM.

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