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Thread: Ancient genomes from present-day France unveil 7,000 years of its demographic history

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcelkolar View Post
    Well I can't disprove it, because there's little evidence for or against it. Hallstatt doesn't strike me as a typically mercantile culture, however. The Hallstatt elite graves look like those of conquerors.
    And what is the evidence for a Hallstatt conquest that extended throughout the entirety of what became the Celtic-speaking world?

    Insistence on spread by conquest makes what you are asserting even less tenable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    And what is the evidence for a Hallstatt conquest that extended throughout the entirety of what became the Celtic-speaking world?

    Insistence on spread by conquest makes what you are asserting even less tenable.
    There are many dense Hallstatt sites outside the traditional core: in wider France, the Czech Republic, Slovenia etc. . In the periphery Hallstatt material becomes scarcer, but I think that is to be expected.

    This isn't really my theory - it has been more or less the consensus for the better part of a century. Hallstatt is quite well-researched after all, not least because it is perhaps the most impressive material culture of metal age Europe.

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    closest thing to anything Proto-Celtic.[/QUOTE]

    As well as Urnfield in the east not likeiy being Celtic, in the south-west it also strikingly overlaps mostly with non IE Etruscan, Iberian etc so I don’t think it’s very useful as an ethnic tracker. It’s clearly not associated with any one language or even language family Plus the typical burials were cremated so we will never have ancient DNA except from atypical and potentially misleading exceptions. It’s pretty well a chocolate teapot for tracing ancient populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcelkolar View Post
    There are many dense Hallstatt sites outside the traditional core: in wider France, the Czech Republic, Slovenia etc. . In the periphery Hallstatt material becomes scarcer, but I think that is to be expected.

    This isn't really my theory - it has been more or less the consensus for the better part of a century. Hallstatt is quite well-researched after all, not least because it is perhaps the most impressive material culture of metal age Europe.
    East Hallstatt was the far larger area and few think it relates to the Celts. In the west, the Hallstatt D richest graves and hillforts and indeed the whole phenomenon relates to a few tribes who got extra rich by trading with Greek colonies in S France, Etruscans etc. It’s almost a socio-economic-political phenomenon of a particular area rather than any indicator of being more Celtic than some other area. They got novel influences and trade with the west Med and this gave them prestige and extotica that others wanted to network with and emulate. So you see a ripple effect of bits of its elite portable material culture being selectively adopted by tribes further afield but with a lot of the package not adopted. Then this period of wealth collapsed by 475BC and a new area of wealth appeared soon after to the north called the La Tene culture which was actually centred not near La Tene in Switzerland but much further north in the Marne-Moselle-Rhineland area with an outlier in Bohemia. Again co

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcelkolar View Post
    There are many dense Hallstatt sites outside the traditional core: in wider France, the Czech Republic, Slovenia etc. . In the periphery Hallstatt material becomes scarcer, but I think that is to be expected.

    This isn't really my theory - it has been more or less the consensus for the better part of a century. Hallstatt is quite well-researched after all, not least because it is perhaps the most impressive material culture of metal age Europe.
    It was the 19th and early 20th century consensus. It isn't the consensus now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcelkolar View Post
    I don't think that's a correct interpretation of this phylogenetic tree. While it is true there might have been para-Celtic languages scattered about, Proto-Celtic strictly refers to the language ancestral to the attested Celtic languages. Languages descended from a common Bronze Age ancestor in places as disparate as Ireland and northern Italy wouldn't have been that closely related by the time they were attested - they would have become entirely distinct languages like, for example, Germanic and Slavic. Chang & Garret produced a rather credible phylogeny that illustrates this quite well:

    It seems to be a waste of time associating modern languages to these celtic samples ...........ie, high-german ( bavarian ), low-german ( saxon ).....in the British invasion by ancient germans it was low-german in pre roman times......what about Gaulish, Lepontic , Magre etc etc

    Italian language began circa 13th century AD ....what are we talking about here ?

    Halstatt and La Tene are 500 years apart , we have no knowledge of what celtic branch ( if the same ) was spoken at these sites.......let alone the celtic "capital" of glauberg ( near modern Frankfurt , Germany )


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    Eastern Hallstatt was more likely Illyro-Thracian with possible Cimmerian and newer steppe influences I'd say. These influenced reached to the West, but the difference between the West and East is quite striking. One possibility is that the commoners in the West were Celtic and the elite not. I think more ancient DNA can help to solve that, because archaeologically its somewhat a deadlock from my perspective. Its however amazing how peculiar and hierarchical the Hallstatt culture was, really very special and sticking out in many ways. Just mentioning style and fashion, with very clear and fairly strong Balkan and Eastern Mediterranean influences. Greek trade and exchange of ideas was instrumental, but I think its more than that.

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    If there was post Bell-Beaker periods/cultures that spread a genetically "Celtic or proto Celtic" people across a wide area (rather than Celtic items), then there should be evidence of this in present day.

    Presumably this would be partially/mostly populated with men from post Bell Beaker R1b-P312 from the Continent i.e. from the Celtic/proto-Celtic Core areas throughout Europe.

    This evidence would manifest itself in ~1500 BC or later y-dna branches that have men from areas where Hallstatt (A-C) and/or La Tene were found.

    Since many branches have an TMRCA age estimate on ytree.net, I looked through it for branches with a TMRCA of ~1500 BC or later.

    I didn't look through the L21 branches, but I did look in DF27, U152, and DF99.

    DF27/S250 > Z195/S355 > Z198 > CTS4188 > S14445 > S11121
    TMRCA (1457 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2210 BC to 767 BC.
    Found in present day Spain, Ukraine, Portugal, Britain, France

    DF27/S250 > Z195/S355 > Z198 > CTS4188 > S14445 > BY3252
    TMRCA (1548 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2242 BC to 888 BC.
    Found in present day Spain, Britain, Finland, Germany, Netherlands

    DF27/S250 > Z195/S355 > Z198 > Z46513 > ZS312 > Z262 > M167
    TMRCA (1174 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1751 BC to 692 BC.
    Found in present day Britain, Switzerland, Spain, Norway, Sweden, Belgium, France, Germany, Ireland, N. Ireland, Netherland, Portugal

    DF27/S250 > Z195/S355 > Z198 > Z46513 > ZS312 > Z262 > BY32601
    TMRCA (914 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1739 BC to 151 BC.
    Found in present day Britain and Spain

    DF27/S250 > Z195/S355 > Z272 > S450 > Z295/S1217 > S25783 > CTS4065
    TMRCA (1537 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2089 BC to 1059 BC..
    Found in present day Czech Rep, Germany, Britain, N. Ireland, Ireland, Italy, Spain, Portugal, France, Netherlands,Ukraine, Belgium, Denmark, Sweden, Slovakia

    DF27/S250 > Z195/S355 > Z272 > S450 > ZZ40
    TMRCA (1490 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2224 BC to 872 BC.
    Found in present day Britain, Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Poland, Netherlands, Ireland, Denmark, Czech Rep, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland

    DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > Z46512 > FGC20747 > FGC20764 > FGC20767 > FGC20770 > BY27772 > FGC20749
    TMRCA (1008 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1554 BC to 540 BC.
    Found in present day Turkey, Germany, Netherlands, Ukraine, Slovakia, Poland, Lithuania, Russia, Belarus, Romania, Portugal, Italy

    DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > Z46512 > FGC78762 > ZZ19 > Z31644 > Z42772 > BY2285
    TMRCA (1571 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2201 BC to 994 BC.
    Found in present day Ireland, Britain, Spain

    DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > Z46512 > FGC78762 > ZZ19 > Z31644 > Z42772 > 8742535-G-GT
    TMRCA (1388 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2055 BC to 741 BC.
    Found in present day Britain, Spain, France, Armenia, Ireland, Sweden, Germany

    DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > Z46512 > FGC78762 > ZZ19 > Z31644 > FGC78763 > A2146 > PH133 > BY3287
    TMRCA (1455 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2148 BC to 744 BC.
    Found in present day Germany and Italy

    DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > ZZ39 > Z229 > Y16019 > Y16018
    TMRCA (1556 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2227 BC to 908 BC.
    Found in present day Germany, Portugal, Spain, N. Ireland, Ireland, Belgium

    DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > ZZ51 > DF83 > Z2563 > Z2564 > S4240
    TMRCA (1471 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2106 BC to 883 BC
    Found in present day Britain, Italy, and possibly Spain (Puerto Rico sample)

    DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > BY3289
    TMRCA (1302 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2399 BC to 503 BC.
    Found in present day Netherlands, Spain, France, Germany, Britain

    DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > PF6551 > BY21057
    TMRCA (1470 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2219 BC to 727 BC.
    Found in present day Britain, Denmark, Portugal

    U152/S28 > L2/S139 > Z41150 > Z49 > Z142/S211 > Z150 > Y3140 (this is my line)
    TMRCA (1319 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1970 BC to 728 BC.
    Found in present day Britain, Italy, Hungary, Spain, Sweden, Czech Rep., Germany

    U152/S28 > L2/S139 > Z41150 > Z49 > A21822 > S8183 > Y4356 > Y4354 > Y4355 > FGC20800
    TMRCA (1072 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1776 BC to 418 BC.
    Found in present day Czech Rep, Germany, Ireland

    U152/S28 > L2/S139 > Z41150 > DF90 > FGC14641 > ~22237861-G-A
    TMRCA (1474 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2105 BC to 913 BC.
    Found in present day Turkey, France, Ireland, Denmark, Austria, Germany

    U152/S28 > L2/S139 > Z41150 > DF90 > FGC14641 > S18462
    TMRCA (656 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1438 BC to 42 AD.
    Found in present day Hungary, Ireland, France, Switzerland, Great Britain

    U152/S28 > L2/S139 > Z41150 > BY4245 > BY3504 > 15984654-CAT-C > BY3478
    TMRCA (1336 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1981 BC to 737 BC.
    Found in present day Italy, Wales, Switzerland

    U152/S28 > L2/S139 > Z367/S255 > L20/S144 > Z46420 > S3856 > S1505 > BY3579
    TMRCA (794 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1465 BC to 151 BC.
    Found in present day Scotland & Spain

    U152/S28 > L2/S139 > Z367/S255 > L20/S144 > Z46420 > S3856 > Y34153
    TMRCA (578 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1246 BC to 22 AD.
    Found in present day Portugal & Sweden

    U152/S28 > Z56 > BY3548 > Z43/S366 > Z48/S484 > BY3952 > FGC11881 > ~6254510-C-A
    TMRCA (1488 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2133 BC to 886 BC.
    Found in present day Italy, Sweden, Ukraine, Germany

    U152/S28 > Z56 > BY3548 > Z43/S366 > ~19904794-T-C > BY3544 > S1523 > BY770
    TMRCA (1478 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2168 BC to 814 BC.
    Found in present day Belarus, Poland, Germany, Spain

    U152/S28 > Z193 > Z192 > BY10448 > PF6652 > Z29456 > Z29460
    TMRCA (649 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1440 BC to 56 AD.
    Found in present day N. Ireland, Ireland, Italy, Germany, Netherlands

    U152/S28 > Z193 > Z40483 > BY3627
    TMRCA (1407 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2188 BC to 670 BC.
    Found in present day France, Ireland, Russia, Scotland, Sweden

    DF99/S11987 > Z29643 > FGC16982 > S23540
    TMRCA (1554 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2297 BC to 911 BC.
    Found in present day Italy, Britain, Netherlands, Denmark, Portugal, Ukraine, Belgium, Austria, Switzerland, France


    I know there are plenty of post/non Hallstatt/La Tene migration events to explain a lot of this distribution, but thought I would throw it out for consideration.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 05-29-2020 at 10:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    If there was post Bell-Beaker periods/cultures that spread a genetically "Celtic or proto Celtic" people across a wide area (rather than Celtic items), then there should be evidence of this in present day.

    Presumably this would be partially/mostly populated with men from post Bell Beaker R1b-P312 from the Continent i.e. from the Celtic/proto-Celtic Core areas throughout Europe.

    This evidence would manifest itself in ~1500 BC or later y-dna branches that have men from areas where Hallstatt (A-C) and/or La Tene were found.

    Since many branches have an TMRCA age estimate on ytree.net, I looked through it for branches with a TMRCA of ~1500 BC or later.

    I didn't look through the L21 branches, but I did look in DF27, U152, and DF99.

    DF27/S250 > Z195/S355 > Z198 > CTS4188 > S14445 > S11121
    TMRCA (1457 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2210 BC to 767 BC.
    Found in present day Spain, Ukraine, Portugal, Britain, France

    DF27/S250 > Z195/S355 > Z198 > CTS4188 > S14445 > BY3252
    TMRCA (1548 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2242 BC to 888 BC.
    Found in present day Spain, Britain, Finland, Germany, Netherlands

    DF27/S250 > Z195/S355 > Z198 > Z46513 > ZS312 > Z262 > M167
    TMRCA (1174 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1751 BC to 692 BC.
    Found in present day Britain, Switzerland, Spain, Norway, Sweden, Belgium, France, Germany, Ireland, N. Ireland, Netherland, Portugal

    DF27/S250 > Z195/S355 > Z198 > Z46513 > ZS312 > Z262 > BY32601
    TMRCA (914 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1739 BC to 151 BC.
    Found in present day Britain and Spain

    DF27/S250 > Z195/S355 > Z272 > S450 > Z295/S1217 > S25783 > CTS4065
    TMRCA (1537 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2089 BC to 1059 BC..
    Found in present day Czech Rep, Germany, Britain, N. Ireland, Ireland, Italy, Spain, Portugal, France, Netherlands,Ukraine, Belgium, Denmark, Sweden, Slovakia

    DF27/S250 > Z195/S355 > Z272 > S450 > ZZ40
    TMRCA (1490 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2224 BC to 872 BC.
    Found in present day Britain, Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Poland, Netherlands, Ireland, Denmark, Czech Rep, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland

    DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > Z46512 > FGC20747 > FGC20764 > FGC20767 > FGC20770 > BY27772 > FGC20749
    TMRCA (1008 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1554 BC to 540 BC.
    Found in present day Turkey, Germany, Netherlands, Ukraine, Slovakia, Poland, Lithuania, Russia, Belarus, Romania, Portugal, Italy

    DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > Z46512 > FGC78762 > ZZ19 > Z31644 > Z42772 > BY2285
    TMRCA (1571 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2201 BC to 994 BC.
    Found in present day Ireland, Britain, Spain

    DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > Z46512 > FGC78762 > ZZ19 > Z31644 > Z42772 > 8742535-G-GT
    TMRCA (1388 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2055 BC to 741 BC.
    Found in present day Britain, Spain, France, Armenia, Ireland, Sweden, Germany

    DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > Z46512 > FGC78762 > ZZ19 > Z31644 > FGC78763 > A2146 > PH133 > BY3287
    TMRCA (1455 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2148 BC to 744 BC.
    Found in present day Germany and Italy

    DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > ZZ39 > Z229 > Y16019 > Y16018
    TMRCA (1556 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2227 BC to 908 BC.
    Found in present day Germany, Portugal, Spain, N. Ireland, Ireland, Belgium

    DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > ZZ51 > DF83 > Z2563 > Z2564 > S4240
    TMRCA (1471 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2106 BC to 883 BC
    Found in present day Britain, Italy, and possibly Spain (Puerto Rico sample)

    DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > BY3289
    TMRCA (1302 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2399 BC to 503 BC.
    Found in present day Netherlands, Spain, France, Germany, Britain

    DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > PF6551 > BY21057
    TMRCA (1470 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2219 BC to 727 BC.
    Found in present day Britain, Denmark, Portugal

    U152/S28 > L2/S139 > Z41150 > Z49 > Z142/S211 > Z150 > Y3140 (this is my line)
    TMRCA (1319 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1970 BC to 728 BC.
    Found in present day Britain, Italy, Hungary, Spain, Sweden, Czech Rep., Germany

    U152/S28 > L2/S139 > Z41150 > Z49 > A21822 > S8183 > Y4356 > Y4354 > Y4355 > FGC20800
    TMRCA (1072 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1776 BC to 418 BC.
    Found in present day Czech Rep, Germany, Ireland

    U152/S28 > L2/S139 > Z41150 > DF90 > FGC14641 > ~22237861-G-A
    TMRCA (1474 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2105 BC to 913 BC.
    Found in present day Turkey, France, Ireland, Denmark, Austria, Germany

    U152/S28 > L2/S139 > Z41150 > DF90 > FGC14641 > S18462
    TMRCA (656 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1438 BC to 42 AD.
    Found in present day Hungary, Ireland, France, Switzerland, Great Britain

    U152/S28 > L2/S139 > Z41150 > BY4245 > BY3504 > 15984654-CAT-C > BY3478
    TMRCA (1336 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1981 BC to 737 BC.
    Found in present day Italy, Wales, Switzerland

    U152/S28 > L2/S139 > Z367/S255 > L20/S144 > Z46420 > S3856 > S1505 > BY3579
    TMRCA (794 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1465 BC to 151 BC.
    Found in present day Scotland & Spain

    U152/S28 > L2/S139 > Z367/S255 > L20/S144 > Z46420 > S3856 > Y34153
    TMRCA (578 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1246 BC to 22 AD.
    Found in present day Portugal & Sweden

    U152/S28 > Z56 > BY3548 > Z43/S366 > Z48/S484 > BY3952 > FGC11881 > ~6254510-C-A
    TMRCA (1488 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2133 BC to 886 BC.
    Found in present day Italy, Sweden, Ukraine, Germany

    U152/S28 > Z56 > BY3548 > Z43/S366 > ~19904794-T-C > BY3544 > S1523 > BY770
    TMRCA (1478 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2168 BC to 814 BC.
    Found in present day Belarus, Poland, Germany, Spain

    U152/S28 > Z193 > Z192 > BY10448 > PF6652 > Z29456 > Z29460
    TMRCA (649 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1440 BC to 56 AD.
    Found in present day N. Ireland, Ireland, Italy, Germany, Netherlands

    U152/S28 > Z193 > Z40483 > BY3627
    TMRCA (1407 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2188 BC to 670 BC.
    Found in present day France, Ireland, Russia, Scotland, Sweden

    DF99/S11987 > Z29643 > FGC16982 > S23540
    TMRCA (1554 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2297 BC to 911 BC.
    Found in present day Italy, Britain, Netherlands, Denmark, Portugal, Ukraine, Belgium, Austria, Switzerland, France


    I know there are plenty of post/non Hallstatt/La Tene migration events to explain a lot of this distribution, but thought I would throw it out for consideration.
    Urnfield cremation from c. 1300-750BC is going to keep the relationship between the people of the Hallstatt C/D and La Tene periods and the preceding 600 years or so unknown forever. And its not a good idea to use totally atypical non-cremated samples in an era where the vast majority cremated. You may end up with atypical people from the margins of society if you do that. There is always going to be a big gap in our knowledge.

    The best approach is to look at the ancient DNA of all the people known to speak Celtic as the first recorded language of their areas and then to look at what they share in common genetically. The level of certainty only generally appears in the last centuries BC or even early AD in some areas. Once you know what definite Celtic speakers were like around those periods, you can then look back at earlier periods to compare them with definite Celtic speakers and infer their genesis from that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    If there was post Bell-Beaker periods/cultures that spread a genetically "Celtic or proto Celtic" people across a wide area (rather than Celtic items), then there should be evidence of this in present day.

    Presumably this would be partially/mostly populated with men from post Bell Beaker R1b-P312 from the Continent i.e. from the Celtic/proto-Celtic Core areas throughout Europe.

    This evidence would manifest itself in ~1500 BC or later y-dna branches that have men from areas where Hallstatt (A-C) and/or La Tene were found.

    Since many branches have an TMRCA age estimate on ytree.net, I looked through it for branches with a TMRCA of ~1500 BC or later.

    I didn't look through the L21 branches, but I did look in DF27, U152, and DF99.

    DF27/S250 > Z195/S355 > Z198 > CTS4188 > S14445 > S11121
    TMRCA (1457 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2210 BC to 767 BC.
    Found in present day Spain, Ukraine, Portugal, Britain, France

    DF27/S250 > Z195/S355 > Z198 > CTS4188 > S14445 > BY3252
    TMRCA (1548 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2242 BC to 888 BC.
    Found in present day Spain, Britain, Finland, Germany, Netherlands

    DF27/S250 > Z195/S355 > Z198 > Z46513 > ZS312 > Z262 > M167
    TMRCA (1174 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1751 BC to 692 BC.
    Found in present day Britain, Switzerland, Spain, Norway, Sweden, Belgium, France, Germany, Ireland, N. Ireland, Netherland, Portugal

    DF27/S250 > Z195/S355 > Z198 > Z46513 > ZS312 > Z262 > BY32601
    TMRCA (914 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1739 BC to 151 BC.
    Found in present day Britain and Spain

    DF27/S250 > Z195/S355 > Z272 > S450 > Z295/S1217 > S25783 > CTS4065
    TMRCA (1537 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2089 BC to 1059 BC..
    Found in present day Czech Rep, Germany, Britain, N. Ireland, Ireland, Italy, Spain, Portugal, France, Netherlands,Ukraine, Belgium, Denmark, Sweden, Slovakia

    DF27/S250 > Z195/S355 > Z272 > S450 > ZZ40
    TMRCA (1490 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2224 BC to 872 BC.
    Found in present day Britain, Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Poland, Netherlands, Ireland, Denmark, Czech Rep, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland

    DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > Z46512 > FGC20747 > FGC20764 > FGC20767 > FGC20770 > BY27772 > FGC20749
    TMRCA (1008 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1554 BC to 540 BC.
    Found in present day Turkey, Germany, Netherlands, Ukraine, Slovakia, Poland, Lithuania, Russia, Belarus, Romania, Portugal, Italy

    DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > Z46512 > FGC78762 > ZZ19 > Z31644 > Z42772 > BY2285
    TMRCA (1571 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2201 BC to 994 BC.
    Found in present day Ireland, Britain, Spain

    DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > Z46512 > FGC78762 > ZZ19 > Z31644 > Z42772 > 8742535-G-GT
    TMRCA (1388 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2055 BC to 741 BC.
    Found in present day Britain, Spain, France, Armenia, Ireland, Sweden, Germany

    DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > Z46512 > FGC78762 > ZZ19 > Z31644 > FGC78763 > A2146 > PH133 > BY3287
    TMRCA (1455 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2148 BC to 744 BC.
    Found in present day Germany and Italy

    DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > ZZ39 > Z229 > Y16019 > Y16018
    TMRCA (1556 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2227 BC to 908 BC.
    Found in present day Germany, Portugal, Spain, N. Ireland, Ireland, Belgium

    DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > ZZ51 > DF83 > Z2563 > Z2564 > S4240
    TMRCA (1471 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2106 BC to 883 BC
    Found in present day Britain, Italy, and possibly Spain (Puerto Rico sample)

    DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > BY3289
    TMRCA (1302 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2399 BC to 503 BC.
    Found in present day Netherlands, Spain, France, Germany, Britain

    DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > PF6551 > BY21057
    TMRCA (1470 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2219 BC to 727 BC.
    Found in present day Britain, Denmark, Portugal

    U152/S28 > L2/S139 > Z41150 > Z49 > Z142/S211 > Z150 > Y3140 (this is my line)
    TMRCA (1319 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1970 BC to 728 BC.
    Found in present day Britain, Italy, Hungary, Spain, Sweden, Czech Rep., Germany

    U152/S28 > L2/S139 > Z41150 > Z49 > A21822 > S8183 > Y4356 > Y4354 > Y4355 > FGC20800
    TMRCA (1072 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1776 BC to 418 BC.
    Found in present day Czech Rep, Germany, Ireland

    U152/S28 > L2/S139 > Z41150 > DF90 > FGC14641 > ~22237861-G-A
    TMRCA (1474 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2105 BC to 913 BC.
    Found in present day Turkey, France, Ireland, Denmark, Austria, Germany

    U152/S28 > L2/S139 > Z41150 > DF90 > FGC14641 > S18462
    TMRCA (656 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1438 BC to 42 AD.
    Found in present day Hungary, Ireland, France, Switzerland, Great Britain

    U152/S28 > L2/S139 > Z41150 > BY4245 > BY3504 > 15984654-CAT-C > BY3478
    TMRCA (1336 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1981 BC to 737 BC.
    Found in present day Italy, Wales, Switzerland

    U152/S28 > L2/S139 > Z367/S255 > L20/S144 > Z46420 > S3856 > S1505 > BY3579
    TMRCA (794 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1465 BC to 151 BC.
    Found in present day Scotland & Spain

    U152/S28 > L2/S139 > Z367/S255 > L20/S144 > Z46420 > S3856 > Y34153
    TMRCA (578 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1246 BC to 22 AD.
    Found in present day Portugal & Sweden

    U152/S28 > Z56 > BY3548 > Z43/S366 > Z48/S484 > BY3952 > FGC11881 > ~6254510-C-A
    TMRCA (1488 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2133 BC to 886 BC.
    Found in present day Italy, Sweden, Ukraine, Germany

    U152/S28 > Z56 > BY3548 > Z43/S366 > ~19904794-T-C > BY3544 > S1523 > BY770
    TMRCA (1478 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2168 BC to 814 BC.
    Found in present day Belarus, Poland, Germany, Spain

    U152/S28 > Z193 > Z192 > BY10448 > PF6652 > Z29456 > Z29460
    TMRCA (649 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 1440 BC to 56 AD.
    Found in present day N. Ireland, Ireland, Italy, Germany, Netherlands

    U152/S28 > Z193 > Z40483 > BY3627
    TMRCA (1407 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2188 BC to 670 BC.
    Found in present day France, Ireland, Russia, Scotland, Sweden

    DF99/S11987 > Z29643 > FGC16982 > S23540
    TMRCA (1554 BC). The 95% confidence interval is 2297 BC to 911 BC.
    Found in present day Italy, Britain, Netherlands, Denmark, Portugal, Ukraine, Belgium, Austria, Switzerland, France


    I know there are plenty of post/non Hallstatt/La Tene migration events to explain a lot of this distribution, but thought I would throw it out for consideration.
    Since the modern men who were tested to find those SNPs are still alive, pretty obviously their ancestors passed through the time period you were looking for and bore SNPs particular to that time period, just as I bear a terminal SNP now that some future researcher might calculate dates back to about 1835 (when my second great grandfather was born).

    My point is that every living man carries some SNP that was current during the time of Hallstatt and La Tene; move back a step or two and you'll find the SNPs that predate Hallstatt and La Tene; move forward a step or two and you'll find those that post date them.

    Is there something really significant about the last SNPs in the strings you cited above other than the mere dates one gets from their tmrcas? Did they suddenly appear during the Hallstatt period at significant frequencies in the places where Celtic has historically been spoken?

    Many y-dna SNPs borne by modern men in this or that place got there long long after Hallstatt and La Tene. In Ireland, for example, U152 is pretty scarce. What there is of it was brought there fairly recently by the English.
    Last edited by rms2; 05-30-2020 at 12:29 AM.

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