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Thread: Ancient genomes from present-day France unveil 7,000 years of its demographic history

  1. #481
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    Indeed, elite transfer is a bumpy road to the goal of language transfer, but it happened nevertheless and there is no recipe for every instance. Yet its even worse to explain the Celtic cultural and linguistic sphere by post-BB networks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Indeed, elite transfer is a bumpy road to the goal of language transfer, but it happened nevertheless and there is no recipe for every instance. Yet its even worse to explain the Celtic cultural and linguistic sphere by post-BB networks.
    Unless, as Alan has pointed out a number of times, the language that came to the British Isles with BB was essentially an early form of Celtic (in the same way that Mycenaean was to classical Greek). In which case the BB network would have facilitated the development of what was already in place, albeit with some divergence, given the geography involved.

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    As a quick explanatory follow-up to my own post, you will notice I said "an early form of Celtic." This was intentional. We've already seen quarreling break out around how we define "proto-Celtic" and other modifiers. There's value in finding terminology we can agree on, but the main point I want to make is, again: the language that came to the Isles was essentially Celtic in the same way that modern Irish is Celtic even though it is quite different from Old Irish (or 1st century Cymric for that matter).

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Mc View Post
    Unless, as Alan has pointed out a number of times, the language that came to the British Isles with BB was essentially an early form of Celtic (in the same way that Mycenaean was to classical Greek). In which case the BB network would have facilitated the development of what was already in place, albeit with some divergence, given the geography involved.
    Somehow the assumption has crept into arguments here that there are no population changes in Ireland after the BB, when something as simple as a PCA shows that this is simply untrue, especially in the context of drift within regional populations of modern Europeans. There is substantial drift in Europe shared by populations on the Atlantic seaboard (PC2 in the link), with French, Northern Iberians, and populations of the British Isles most affected, and the change in Britain and Ireland from the BB to the IA-modern period is subtle but certainly present. Note that the subtle difference between "England" and "England_IA" in fact represents ~15-30% population replacement from Scandinavia as inferred from rare alleles, which gives us some sense of the degree of demographic change involved in the change from the Bronze to the Iron Ages. All these are accompanied by almost no change in PC1 (Steppe:Neolithic ratio), which is in fact where Lara Cassidy's claim of "genetic continuity" can be most strongly supported.

    Of course we have to wait to see if these changes were gradual or sudden, which will require new data.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Somehow the assumption has crept into arguments here that there are no population changes in Ireland after the BB, when something as simple as a PCA shows that this is simply untrue, especially in the context of drift within regional populations of modern Europeans. There is substantial drift in Europe shared by populations on the Atlantic seaboard (PC2 in the link), with French, Northern Iberians, and populations of the British Isles most affected, and the change in Britain and Ireland from the BB to the IA-modern period is subtle but certainly present. Note that the subtle difference between "England" and "England_IA" in fact represents ~15-30% population replacement from Scandinavia as inferred from rare alleles, which gives us some sense of the degree of demographic change involved in the change from the Bronze to the Iron Ages. All these are accompanied by almost no change in PC1 (Steppe:Neolithic ratio), which is in fact where Lara Cassidy's claim of "genetic continuity" can be most strongly supported.

    Of course we have to wait to see if these changes were gradual or sudden, which will require new data.
    Well, I for one can only think of one way to settle it. We fight!!!! Lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    Well, I for one can only think of one way to settle it. We fight!!!! Lol
    : )))))

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    Well, I for one can only think of one way to settle it. We fight!!!! Lol
    Quoted from this Forum:

    "Which superman haplogroup is the toughest - R1a or R1b? And which SNP mutation spoke Indo-European first? There's only one way for us to find out ... fight!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Somehow the assumption has crept into arguments here that there are no population changes in Ireland after the BB, when something as simple as a PCA shows that this is simply untrue, especially in the context of drift within regional populations of modern Europeans. There is substantial drift in Europe shared by populations on the Atlantic seaboard (PC2 in the link), with French, Northern Iberians, and populations of the British Isles most affected, and the change in Britain and Ireland from the BB to the IA-modern period is subtle but certainly present. Note that the subtle difference between "England" and "England_IA" in fact represents ~15-30% population replacement from Scandinavia as inferred from rare alleles, which gives us some sense of the degree of demographic change involved in the change from the Bronze to the Iron Ages. All these are accompanied by almost no change in PC1 (Steppe:Neolithic ratio), which is in fact where Lara Cassidy's claim of "genetic continuity" can be most strongly supported.

    Of course we have to wait to see if these changes were gradual or sudden, which will require new data.
    I'm not sure if we have enough samples to tell, but would you say there was a bigger change in the 2 millennia between BB and the late pre-Roman iron age or between then and now?

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    I think a few of these comments miss a key part of the point I am making I am not arguing for stasis and isolation from the beaker era. I am arguing that there was a continuous network of contact and low level gene flow from the beaker era to end of the Iron Age. What i am saying is that the archaeology just indicates that the influences and contact seen (to varying degrees) of Hallstatt and La Tene were simply the same phenomenon of the continuous influences and contacts we see in the Bronze Age too. The Iron Age ones are only highlighted more than exactly the same phenomenon in the iron age because of a long tradition of working back from Classical references to give ethnic labels to Iron Age cultures. If you look at the archaeology of much of the isles you see exactly the same phenomenon throughout the bronze age as you do in the iron age - constant uptake of the latest ideas and styles in terms of elite objects but without uptake of the more mundane aspects of archaeology like house types etc. The picking out of the iron age part of this 2500 year long pattern is simply a result of the iron age overlapping or being not too long before classical sources start putting ethnic labels. Its wrong to characterise what I am saying as a trade thing. Its much deeper than that. There was probably a constant chess board of tribes in contacts with others on many levels. Non-hostile mobility and movement would have had multiple forms and aspects from marriage to trade to fostering to cross-tribal religious and learned castes and many more aspects. The moderate shift seen in iron age burials cannot be compared properly with mid to late bronze age burials due to cremation. So the moderate shift may actually have taken place through this kind of constant contact and geneflow across the whole period after the early bronze age but can only be observed in the iron age due to non-cremated burials being commonly available for the first time since the earlier bronze age. I dont even rule out hostile movements from adjacent groups in small numbers although in the chessboard of tribes they are likely to have been mostly involving neighbours and wider effects would be due to a gradual domino effect. But it certainly wasnt like the now-clearly-comically simplistic old maps with a group in a 'homeland' blob in Alps of central Europe expanded following arrows across Europe. It was a way more complex process than that. Anyone with any sort of grasp of archaeology beyond simplified popular books can see that what was Celtic Europe by the late centuries BC came to be so by complex processes not simple invasion and displacement. Its not just the isles which do not show a pattern of a simple Iron Age invasion and replacement model, a lot of Gaul has equally weak evidence of its Celticity being down to Iron Age invasion arrows coming from a homeland blob. Its not game of thrones. The archaeological record shows a lot more nuanced process than that. Think of things like nested clientship and tribute systems etc.

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  15. #490
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    I think in the specific case of the Isles the Celtic migration could in fact have been demographically significant, though the original Hallstatt signal would have been extremely diluted by admixture picked up in northern France and the vicinity. Hallstatt material is rather scarce in Britain & Ireland, so an elite dominance scenario is less likely there than it is in France, Germany etc. . However, if the migrating insular Celts themselves were descended largely from Celticized groups rather than the Hallstatt elites, neither elite dominance nor significant genetic change need to be invoked to explain the existence of the Celtic languages in the British isles. It would have been the result of a secondary process, in much the same way that romanized Iberians brought Latin languages to South America.

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