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Thread: R1a>M458>L1029

  1. #1
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    R1a>M458>L1029

    Hi guys,

    I collected the number of samples on BigY Tree on the major branches of L1029. (Minor samples are too small to show.)
    Of course, the segregation of modern states is not a very good thing, since there were other states before, and there is always a choice where to put the ancestral line ([Poland or Lithuania or Belarus], [Poland or Germany], [Czech or Germany] [Austro-Hungary] etc. Also, multinational states do not clarify the picture (Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, etc.) There are 4 indigenous peoples in Belarus (Belarusians, Lithuanians, Tatars, Ashekenazi. And local Poles). If you leave only Ukrainians with deep roots in Ukraine, then YP417 will be 2 times less.) Plus, different testability by country should be taken into account. In Serbia, for example, YP417 bolt but Serbs are little tested in FTDNA.
    But here you can imagine the representation of branches in high geographical resolution.

    It can be concluded that Poland is most represented by all branches, followed by Germany and the Czech Republic, then Russia, then Hungary, Ukraine, Sweden.


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  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varang View Post
    Hi guys,

    I collected the number of samples on BigY Tree on the major branches of L1029. (Minor samples are too small to show.)
    Of course, the segregation of modern states is not a very good thing, since there were other states before, and there is always a choice where to put the ancestral line ([Poland or Lithuania or Belarus], [Poland or Germany], [Czech or Germany] [Austro-Hungary] etc. Also, multinational states do not clarify the picture (Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, etc.) There are 4 indigenous peoples in Belarus (Belarusians, Lithuanians, Tatars, Ashekenazi. And local Poles). If you leave only Ukrainians with deep roots in Ukraine, then YP417 will be 2 times less.) Plus, different testability by country should be taken into account. In Serbia, for example, YP417 bolt but Serbs are little tested in FTDNA.
    But here you can imagine the representation of branches in high geographical resolution.

    It can be concluded that Poland is most represented by all branches, followed by Germany and the Czech Republic, then Russia, then Hungary, Ukraine, Sweden.

    You should include yseq/yfull/dante data as well if you have a way of getting access of course. With just FTDNA can be misleading. Maybe even Poreklo for their data Serbs and others in their project.

    There's currently 4 bigy L1029 in Albania. Mine under L1029* (all my matches didn't do bigy), and 3 Albanians under YP263. I believe the bigy you have recorded is one of them.

    I'm quite surprised about the 3 Irish L1029. Of course YP263 in their case. Maybe arrived with the Vikings in Ireland or possibly earlier as a minor lineage arriving with Saxons.

    Though if L1029 is confirmed in LA Tene, finding it in Ireland will make sense.

    Of course the first 2 scenarios are probably more likely in their case.
    Last edited by Dibran; 04-28-2020 at 04:50 PM.

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  5. #3
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    sofar published ancient/old L1029+ incl.

    2x warriors, piast pomerania (non-local)
    1x mologa river (volga trib.) YP417+ ?old-russian phase ?new-christian phase
    1x nobleman, lubart's castle prin.halych-volhynia
    1x slav(?vendland), viking cem. fyn,DK

    anyone knows if YP417+ VK160, as in link #94, was from the old-russian 11thc. or the new-christian 12thc. phase?
    Geno2.0 51SEURO 19WCEURO 13SCANDINAVIA 5ASIAMINOR 4EEURO 4GB/IRELAND 3ARABIA myOrigins 26ITA.PENINSULA 13GREECE&BALKANS 12SARDINIA 18GREATBRITAIN 14IRELAND 10CEN.EUROPE 8SCANDINAVIA DNA.Land 49NWEURO 27SEURO 13MED.ISLANDER 11SARDINIAN myHeritage 51.8NWEURO 33.2ITALIAN 7.9GREEK/S.ITALY 7.1BALKAN gencove 29NITALY 19EMED 15NBRITISLES 12SWEURO 10NCEURO 9SCANDINAVIA 6NEEURO GenePlaza 54.4NWEURO 37.6GREEK/ALBANIAN 5.6WASIAN 2.4SWASIA LivingDNA 70.7SGERMANIC 16.3TUSCANY 9.2N.ITALY 3.8SARDINIA

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  7. #4
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    Yep, you are right, Dibran, this tab doesn't include L1029*, minor branches and results predicted by our haplogroup project. We have many restrictions but L1029 is represented by 705 samples. So, it is quite good selection. And a different testability by countries is an additional restriction but I hope it suits for the calculation of ratio between branches and their representation. For example, Thirty Years' War claimed 2/3 of the population in Czechs but ratio bertween different branches can be seen as visual.

  8. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    You should include yseq/yfull/dante data as well if you have a way of getting access of course. With just FTDNA can be misleading. Maybe even Poreklo for their data Serbs and others in their project.

    There's currently 4 bigy L1029 in Albania. Mine under L1029* (all my matches didn't do bigy), and 3 Albanians under YP263. I believe the bigy you have recorded is one of them.

    I'm quite surprised about the 3 Irish L1029. Of course YP263 in their case. Maybe arrived with the Vikings in Ireland or possibly earlier as a minor lineage arriving with Saxons.

    Though if L1029 is confirmed in LA Tene, finding it in Ireland will make sense.

    Of course the first 2 scenarios are probably more likely in their case.
    I attach 2 maps (1. autosomal ibd of MX265 and 2 Danube river). May be it could be interesting.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Varang View Post
    Yep, you are right, Dibran, this tab doesn't include L1029*, minor branches and results predicted by our haplogroup project. We have many restrictions but L1029 is represented by 705 samples. So, it is quite good selection. And a different testability by countries is an additional restriction but I hope it suits for the calculation of ratio between branches and their representation. For example, Thirty Years' War claimed 2/3 of the population in Czechs but ratio bertween different branches can be seen as visual.
    Interesting. I do notice YP417 seems to be the overwhelming majority of Baltic, Eastern and to some extent South-Slavic L1029.

    Whereas, West Slavs and others under L1029 seem to have an abundance of YP263 and other clades generally lacking in East and South Slavs.

    A few of my Russian matches in L1029 are German, Adyghe and Tatar minorities. So I'm curious what clades are more represented in actual Russians and the minority republics.

    For instance, YP263* has a Shapsug/Adyghe from Russia. One study even found M458 reaches up to 20% in the north and south Caucasus tribes of Circassians and Dargins. Including Nogai who have quite a bit of M458.

    Also, another Russian under YP619 on yfull is actually a German minority. Surnamed Graf. His listed region was historically settled by Germans. All descending twigs in this branch seem to be mostly from Germany(from Hesse to Thuringia and Bayern) and England. Also a Finn, and a Swede with a German surname. Basal YP619 is also German. Though no region is listed.

    Also, a Romanian from Buzau under R-Y44160* (a subclade of YP418) has a Bulgarian descending from Y44160 with the surname "Vlahov".

    Perhaps the branch came from Romania to Bulgaria im the late medieval.

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  11. #7
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    Yes, you are right, we have some regions where YP417 is around 10%. It is Serbia, Bulgaria, NW Russia ... Balts - almost zero. Our Lithuanian samples are Slavic or Tatar, maybe 1-2 are Lithuanuans. Latvians - 0. But Baltic sea is present.
    Caucasus - Chechens.
    35% of YP1013 is Ashkenazi branch M12402 (1300 ybp by YFull).
    YP418 and esp. YP1137 have many Tatars and Finns.
    Every big subclade below YP417 have Balkanians. Nevetheless, they are underestimated in FTDNA.
    I am an Admin of R1a-YP417 and Subclades Project. So, you could see the tabs yourself. Welcome:
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

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  13. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varang View Post
    Hi guys,

    I collected the number of samples on BigY Tree on the major branches of L1029. (Minor samples are too small to show.)
    Of course, the segregation of modern states is not a very good thing, since there were other states before, and there is always a choice where to put the ancestral line ([Poland or Lithuania or Belarus], [Poland or Germany], [Czech or Germany] [Austro-Hungary] etc. Also, multinational states do not clarify the picture (Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, etc.) There are 4 indigenous peoples in Belarus (Belarusians, Lithuanians, Tatars, Ashekenazi. And local Poles). If you leave only Ukrainians with deep roots in Ukraine, then YP417 will be 2 times less.) Plus, different testability by country should be taken into account. In Serbia, for example, YP417 bolt but Serbs are little tested in FTDNA.
    But here you can imagine the representation of branches in high geographical resolution.

    It can be concluded that Poland is most represented by all branches, followed by Germany and the Czech Republic, then Russia, then Hungary, Ukraine, Sweden.

    One of the YP4647 German kits is actually from England. He has unknown paternal ancestry and matched with a lot of Germans/STR matches from Germany so he put that. IIRC he is part of YP4648... making it a “English only” subclade.

    The other German sample is indeed from Germany (from southwest Germany, Although I might be wrong... haven’t been able to confirm with the kit owner). He is part of YP4653. Meaning YP4653 is a German/English (yp4648 is downstream) branch so far.

    EDIT: Also, as a side note, there is more than 3 YP4647 kits from England. I know of at least like 6-7... pretty sure they are all in the R1a1a and Subclades project too.
    Last edited by Brent.B; 04-28-2020 at 09:32 PM.

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  15. #9
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    I am descended from YP619, and my male line is from Germany. I believe the YP619* from Hesse is named Bookhammer (anglicized from Buchheimer or some similar name), while mine is from right across the Rhine in the northern Palatinate.

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  17. #10
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    One thing to keep in mind is that, according to some on this Forum, the countries further east (Ukraine, Belarus, and Russia) are under sampled compared to more western countries (England, Germany, Poland, etc). By how much, I am not sure... I recall there being a few posts about that a few years ago. If I can find it I'll post it.

    That might affect how to interpret these numbers.

    EDIT: Here is a link to the discussion

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....297#post127297

    And here (post #403):

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....e-Slavs/page41
    Last edited by Brent.B; 04-28-2020 at 08:39 PM.

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