R1a>M458>L1029

[Technocrat]

But we also have an Iron Age sample of M458 from southern Germany with a profile similar to Serbian. Where did he come from...?

He was only superficially close to South West Slavs to be fair. He was also of low quality. As such, he's likely not basal M458*. Due to the quality he couldn't be placed further. Wouldn't be surprised if he was also L1029 like the late la tene Czechia sample.

I don't think there can be any doubt that M458 existed near to or overlapped with the Balto-Slavic territories. So my guess is Southern ir southeastern Poland. Most M458 diversity in Belarus is linked to Poland and its heavily concentrated on the South West border.

There's even more diversity in part of Russia. Whether that's linked to Polish migrants is another story. Amd by Polish I just mean from Poland the territory and not nationalistically speaking. Even the new Southern Poland samples were super diverse in their M458 clades which dominated.

While a low sample size, Slovakia and Belarus have the same number of M458 on ftdna out if 50. Only one Belarusian belongs to M458*, compared to 10 times that number in Slovakia.

Germany, Poland and Russia currently have the most. In that order.

[ambron]

As geneticists believe, the most informative are rare haplotypes. Therefore, it is necessary to pay attention to the brotherly, in relation to the M458, line R-BY32026. Today under this line we have two Poles, one Englishman, one German, one Italian and one inhabitant of Grenada. This again increases the likelihood that M458 is a local Polish mutation.

[leonardo]

25524 from Hungary was only confirmed M458. It is unlikely you share an ancestor with him 2200 years ago. Try more like 5000 years ago. His Balto-Slavic profile is irrelevant to L1029(descended nearly 2000 years later by its formation date), or to its origin or makeup. I agree though that he cannot be called Slavic in 450 BCE. He was actually around 200 BCE based on yfull.

It's likely M458 existed near/overlapped with the Balto-Slavic sphere. However, linking Y-DNA with the origins and evolution of a language and culture is the stuff if pseudo science. Their may be major contributors to a language and the ethnogenesis that contributed to its building blocks, but this idea a bunch if Y-DNA had to follow the same origin as an autosomal genome and language reeks of an agenda.

All we can talk about are specific subclades that may be classified by Slavic based upon their microsatelite diversity and expansion events.

Anyone saying that these lines should all descend in one place is clearly trying to force an absolutist ideology.

Maybe the TMRCA was 2200 BCE, not 2220 YBP. I tried to check on my FTDNA account but their system is glitching.

[leonardo]

As geneticists believe, the most informative are rare haplotypes. Therefore, it is necessary to pay attention to the brotherly, in relation to the M458, line R-BY32026. Today under this line we have two Poles, one Englishman, one German, one Italian and one inhabitant of Grenada. This again increases the likelihood that M458 is a local Polish mutation.

Makes me think of the Amber Road. I wonder about the Grenada sample? Ultimately Spanish? Italian? British?

[Technocrat]

Maybe the TMRCA was 2200 BCE, not 2220 YBP. I tried to check on my FTDNA account but their system is glitching.

Can't be. Ftdna actually overestimated tmrca compared to yfull. M458 is older there I think.

[ambron]

Makes me think of the Amber Road. I wonder about the Grenada sample? Ultimately Spanish? Italian? British?

Looking at the history of Grenada, it will most likely be French or Englishman. However, it cannot be ruled out that it could be a Pole. Among the Caribbean French there were many Poles sent to the Caribbean by Napoleon. Apparently, every second inhabitant of Haiti has a Polish surname. After the liberation of Haiti, some Poles stayed in place, and some dispersed throughout the Caribbean, trading mainly with British colonies.

[alexfritz]

this is a map on the current data of old CTS11962 and L1029 samples
(not incl Grab 20 of Stolpe Uckermark)

 

some CTS11962 might indeed be terminal others might still be uncomfirmed L1029 (eg kls001) or YP515; but the overall vibe im getting from it in conjunction with the qpAdm results of the two on gotland (VK438 VK452) is that CTS11962 has still a strong reference to the baltic zone; which seemingly aligns with the earliest M458 sample I25524 (450-1 BCE); setting the older clades M458 and CTS11962 more in the context of the the baltic zone whilst the younger clade L1029 (incl its subclades) more among the context of the slavic expansion in central and eastern europe but ult baltic derived

at haplotree info there are a host of samples from ~1300 from russia listed M458 of which seevral could maybe also be L1029 derived

[leonardo]

this is a map on the current data of old CTS11962 and L1029 samples
(not incl Grab 20 of Stolpe Uckermark)

 

some CTS11962 might indeed be terminal others might still be uncomfirmed L1029 (eg kls001) or YP515; but the overall vibe im getting from it in conjunction with the qpAdm results of the two on gotland (VK438 VK452) is that CTS11962 has still a strong reference to the baltic zone; which seemingly aligns with the earliest M458 sample I25524 (450-1 BCE); setting the older clades M458 and CTS11962 more in the context of the the baltic zone whilst the younger clade L1029 (incl its subclades) more among the context of the slavic expansion in central and eastern europe but ult baltic derived

at haplotree info there are a host of samples from ~1300 from russia listed M458 of which seevral could maybe also be L1029 derived

That Baltic zone corresponds to the Pomeranian Culture.
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ossible_causes

[leonardo]

Two new samples on my YFull SNP match list. One is YP263 and the other is further down the tree at Y2921. The latter sample has Y2921 as its terminal clade. Unfortunately, neither sample has any information about his last known ancestor. I am especially interested in the Y2921 sample, to determine more about the path of Slavic origins and migration. I emailed the match for further information. We will see if he responds.

[leonardo]

I received an email about a new tool on FTDNA. This one is called The Group Time Tree in FamilyTreeDNA Discover. Here's one result:
discover.png