Uralic homeland and genetics and their implications for PIE

[Standardized Ape]

We have two samples which may be West Chudic but they are not representatives of the same population. It is even possible they are not even Uralic speakers.

Target: RUS_Ingria_IA:VIII5_2
Distance: 3.2228% / 0.03222813
98.0 Baltic_LVA_BA
2.0 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: RUS_Ingria_IA:VIII9_1
Distance: 2.9322% / 0.02932236
55.8 Baltic_LVA_BA
22.2 DNK_BA
16.4 CZE_Early_Slav
3.2 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
2.4 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

If the Generalissimo is still around it would be appreciated if he was to add VII15 to G25 for further insight into the region. I believe Vladimir will take as a challenge to make the DNK_BA go away

[parastais]

We have two samples which may be West Chudic but they are not representatives of the same population. It is even possible they are not even Uralic speakers.

Target: RUS_Ingria_IA:VIII5_2
Distance: 3.2228% / 0.03222813
98.0 Baltic_LVA_BA
2.0 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Not sure how to properly read these. Other than - all those components besides Krasnoyarsk correlate to each other, and therefore for each individual case some individual mix appear..

Btw, if you use same antique populations -> how would modern Finns, Estonians, Latvian, Lithuanians, Belorussians and Swedes look like? Would they pick up Krasnoyarsk or not?

[Standardized Ape]

Not sure how to properly read these. Other than - all those components besides Krasnoyarsk correlate to each other, and therefore for each individual case some individual mix appear..

Btw, if you use same antique populations -> how would modern Finns, Estonians, Latvian, Lithuanians, Belorussians and Swedes look like? Would they pick up Krasnoyarsk or not?

Swedes and Balts don't really pick up Krasnoyarsk_BA but this method isn't surgically precise to the smallest level. East Slavs(including to a small degree even Belarusians) do pick up some Krasnoyarsk_BA. SRB_Mokrin_EBA seems to improve the fits a lot.

Target: Belarusian
Distance: 1.6976% / 0.01697587
49.2 Baltic_LVA_BA
22.6 CZE_Early_Slav
21.0 SRB_Mokrin_EBA
3.2 DEU_MA_Alemanic_Lombardian
3.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
1.0 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Estonian
Distance: 1.6422% / 0.01642219
59.6 Baltic_LVA_BA
15.2 DEU_MA_Alemanic_Lombardian
9.2 RUS_Petrovka_MLBA
7.4 CZE_Early_Slav
6.4 SRB_Mokrin_EBA
2.2 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Lithuanian
Distance: 1.7124% / 0.01712411
67.6 Baltic_LVA_BA
17.4 SRB_Mokrin_EBA
11.6 DEU_MA_Alemanic_Lombardian
3.4 CZE_Early_Slav

[Jaska]

Actually there was one work on possible Uralic placenames in Belarus (I know because I was looking for it few years ago, I think once Lang first time wrote on Southern Route, I kinda liked his idea and did my google research), but that I think was in Russian and not in a format of text, but photo copy of printed old article. Later I googled and found out that his ideas were critiqued and dropped. But I can't remember who was it.

OK, interesting. Methods have developed all the time, so totally new scrutiny should be done.

Until that is done. To me an argument that waves wiped out Finnic placenames on Southern Route, is similar to argument that waves wiped out Finnic placenames on Northern Route. I really dont understand who those two arguments are different?

The difference is, that in the northern route there are other Uralic languages, so there is lesser room for Finnic. In the southern route there are no other Uralic languages, so there is more room for Finnic.

This is because the West-Uralic expansions seem to be contemporaneous, or Saamic even earlier than Finnic (according to Lang, although no linguistic evidence requires that), and Meryanic has some similar-looking sound changes than Saamic.

Of course it would still be theoretically possible that Finnic spread to the west first and Meryanic only followed it. Still, the evidence support more the southern route for Finnic than the northern route (although not conclusively).

Besides I am somewhat puzzled by West Chudes, if it was decided based on toponyms that those guys were some kind of combo of Finnic and Meryan, then what makes us reject scenario -
1) proto-Finnic language presence (i.e. in toponyms)
2) Meryan immigrants changing Finnic toponyms to their language
3) Slavic immigrants changing Meryanized Finnic toponyms to their language

I don't follow - why combo of Finnic and Meryan? West Chude is an archaic language form, which still survived until the slavicization of the area.

It is already a titanic work to tell behind Slavic name for the river whether it was Baltic or Finnic at route. Trying to tell whether it was originally proto-Finnic later interpreted by incoming Meryan becomes close to impossible, and might turn a researcher towards idea that West Chudes were some sort of Finnic-Meryan mish mash.

If Meryans adopted Proto-Finnic placenames, the Finnic sound changes would still be visible.

According to Supren and Yarotau, in Polotsk region 55% of hydronyms are Finno-Ugric, 27% are Baltic, 17% Slavic. Guess you must find a student to classify them. If they are proto-Balto-Finnic (and not say South Finnic or Meryan, etc), then that would be a huge argument for Southern Route.

Good point.

[parastais]

@Jaska,
А. Е. Яротов, Топонимика Беларуси, 2011.
He wrote that NW Belarus had few layers of toponyms:
1) Oldest Baltic Finns
2) Hybrid Finnic & Baltic
3) Baltic
4) Slavic

Any linguist in Finland working on this subject? They should evaluate this and at least try to assess features of donor language for that oldest layer. Maybe that is indeed how Baltic Finnics arrived into Baltics, would be huge news.

[parastais]

Swedes and Balts don't really pick up Krasnoyarsk_BA but this method isn't surgically precise to the smallest level. East Slavs(including to a small degree even Belarusians) do pick up some Krasnoyarsk_BA. SRB_Mokrin_EBA seems to improve the fits a lot.

Target: Belarusian
Distance: 1.6976% / 0.01697587
49.2 Baltic_LVA_BA
22.6 CZE_Early_Slav
21.0 SRB_Mokrin_EBA
3.2 DEU_MA_Alemanic_Lombardian
3.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
1.0 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Estonian
Distance: 1.6422% / 0.01642219
59.6 Baltic_LVA_BA
15.2 DEU_MA_Alemanic_Lombardian
9.2 RUS_Petrovka_MLBA
7.4 CZE_Early_Slav
6.4 SRB_Mokrin_EBA
2.2 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA

Target: Lithuanian
Distance: 1.7124% / 0.01712411
67.6 Baltic_LVA_BA
17.4 SRB_Mokrin_EBA
11.6 DEU_MA_Alemanic_Lombardian
3.4 CZE_Early_Slav

When I did those, Hun_Avar_Szolad was all Lithuanians needed apart from Baltic_LVA_BA. Which keeps puzzling me greatly.

[parastais]

@Jaska,
Do you know what Petri Kallio thinks of Southern Route?
This is quote from his work on “Gauja/Koivu”:
“ thus supporting the theory that the earliest Finnic expansion to northern Latvia dates no earlier than the second century AD. Before this Finnic southward expansion, the Baltic speaking area extended much further to the north, as evidenced by the words borrowed into Middle Proto-Finnic from North Baltic, that is, my proposed label for this otherwise unattested Baltic dialect (Kallio 2008).”
Does he still hold on view that it was Southward expansion (rather than Northward) or had changed that in light of new data or Valter Lang’s theory?

[parastais]

Also from Petri Kallio:
Diversification of Proto-Finnic
“ As a matter of fact, the Finnic speech area was probably even more restricted to the coastal areas than his map suggests, because As a matter of fact, the Finnic speech area was probably even more restricted to the coastal areas than his map suggests, because it was not until the second century AD that typical tarand graves spread from coastal Estonia to inland Estonia as well as northern Latvia (Lang 2007: 191–203), thus causing the separation of Inland Finnic (> South Estonian) and Gulf of Riga Finnic (> Livonian)”
If this is how it, then Southern Route becomes rather doubtful hypothesis, despite its attractiveness..

[Jaska]

Also from Petri Kallio:
Diversification of Proto-Finnic
“ As a matter of fact, the Finnic speech area was probably even more restricted to the coastal areas than his map suggests, because As a matter of fact, the Finnic speech area was probably even more restricted to the coastal areas than his map suggests, because it was not until the second century AD that typical tarand graves spread from coastal Estonia to inland Estonia as well as northern Latvia (Lang 2007: 191–203), thus causing the separation of Inland Finnic (> South Estonian) and Gulf of Riga Finnic (> Livonian)”
If this is how it, then Southern Route becomes rather doubtful hypothesis, despite its attractiveness..

However, the maps in Lang 2020 show, that even the earliest tarand graves were found in Curland and Gauja region in Latvia. In 2007 Lang hadn't formulated his synthesis yet, and the data was more sparse.

It's better that we still handle archaeological and linguistic phenomena separately, because cultural phenomena may have several roots. That tarand graves could in some point be connected to the Finnic speakers, does not mean that they can in all the earlier points in time be connected to the Finnic speakers, because archaeological or genetic continuity cannot testify for linguistic continuity.

[Jaska]

@Jaska,
Do you know what Petri Kallio thinks of Southern Route?
This is quote from his work on “Gauja/Koivu”:
“ thus supporting the theory that the earliest Finnic expansion to northern Latvia dates no earlier than the second century AD. Before this Finnic southward expansion, the Baltic speaking area extended much further to the north, as evidenced by the words borrowed into Middle Proto-Finnic from North Baltic, that is, my proposed label for this otherwise unattested Baltic dialect (Kallio 2008).”
Does he still hold on view that it was Southward expansion (rather than Northward) or had changed that in light of new data or Valter Lang’s theory?

Kallio 2018 argues that in the "family tree" of South Estonian, Leivu was the first to split off. Leivu is a southern Estonian "island" spoken in the otherwise Latvian area (the name Leivu being a probable cognate of Liivi [Livonian], considering the Leivu sound change *ii > ei). As South Estonian itself was the first to split off from Proto-Finnic, this moves the area of deepest diversity in Finnic yet more southwards, which matches well with the Lang's synthesis.
https://www.academia.edu/37987581/Va...A4nnehistoriaa